Carbine vs Pistol training

[Hawk]

I believe one of the reasons allot of people attend carbine courses is simply due to the fact that there are now scads of accessories available for the Stoner and Kalashnikov platforms these days and consequently owners want to use their new toys.


But simply stated, the war in Iraq-i-stan has provided the justification for adult males to "dress up and play army".

It's human nature... The only thing holding back more "boy's with toy's" from "playing" is the cost associated with taking the courses.

Now on the other hand, I think if the pistol classes were much more convenient to schedule for the average working Joe, and a lot easier on the pocketbook, interest/attendance would skyrocket.

[d90king]

I am sure by now everyone knows that I am a training over tools guy. Many are probably tired of hearing about it. I have a very serious question though and I would like people to weigh in for a good discussion.

Here is my question- Why do so many people who carry a pistol everyday attend carbine courses instead of pistol courses? Every time I am at Wally World I look at the gun rags and see review after review of carbine courses.

I have an M4 custom built by Steve Troy, custom SN and all. I carried it on the job, I taught carbine, I deployed it on patrol and on SWAT jobs. But to tell you the truth not that much compared to my pistol that was always on me. Several times I was involved in stuff off duty and it was always my pistol in my hands.

Now that I am not on the job anymore I see little chance of me ever being in a position to use my rifle outside my home or the range. I would imagine that is the same for most people so why the need for so many carbine courses? The farther a threat is from you the easier it is to deal with. What is the chance of anyone not in the military being spontaneously attacked while having a rifle slung? Don't misunderstand me, everyone should have training on all weapon systems but I think it should follow a logical order of what you are most likely to be able to use. For me that would be first fundamentals on pistol, shotgun, and rifle in that order. Then a combative course in each and then lots and lots of force on force in realistic environments. For most of us that would be in our "street" clothes inside of a house, not running around a field even with long guns.

Again, I am interested in everyone thoughts.- George

Interesting question George....

I will give my thoughts on the subject and my thoughts behind them.

I think maybe because I was raised at Military School and started with firearms at 13 I might have a slightly different mindset behind my training schedule.

I was taught early on that any firearm platform that you own and hence operate, that it is vital to master that weapons manual of arms. I am not a .gov employee, so a long gun is not my primary weapon, but it is a weapon that I use. I think that is irresponsible to own a platform and not know how it operates, nor how to properly employ that weapon to its maximum capabilities.

I cant tell you how many people own either AR's or AK's and have no clue how to run the platform. I have witnessed on countless occasions at the range where a conversation goes like this... "pull that thing in the back and it loads it for you and when its empty push this button..." to me that is completely unacceptable for the owner of that firearm.

I am not implying that you need to be able run your rifle in the same manner or with the same efficiency that Vickers or the Magpul guys do, but I do believe that you should have a very strong command of running any firearm platform that you own, or one that you could end up employing in defense of your life, or the lives of your loved ones.

You bring up the fact that you would employ your rifle in defense of your home. That said, don't you believe in learning to operate that rifle in an efficient manner? You cant expect for that to happen by simply going to the range and shooting beer cans.

I laughed a little at your chest rigs etc.. comment, because that was something I struggled with when taking my first rifle class. I have a motto of, training like I fight, and in reality there is a low probability that I will need to employ a chest rig. However in order to learn proper reloads and transitions to secondary weapons that is a necessary evil. You practice reloads on your primary weapon, why wouldn't you train the same way on your secondary (yes I understand that your hands and blades are your secondary etc..). I also attend classes with my everyday carry holster and spare mag holder. I don't run two setups. I laugh at the guys who show up and are not .gov guys that employ leg drop holsters, molle, plates etc...

I have recently started to carry a P30 as a carry weapon, it took me nearly 6 months of training with it before I was willing to transition to it. Why? Because it has a different manual of arms. It required learning a new grip, new trigger work, a new draw stroke, new sight pic, different reloads etc...

Rifles are no different. I think anybody who owns a rifle and doesn't know its manual of arms and how to employ it as a weapon, is a FOOL and lazy. If you don't want to put the time, effort, energy and the financial resources to learn your weapons... DONT BUY THEM.

I try and split my training time down the middle staggering classes. I will be taking a Hackathorn advanced pistol and low light class in the spring, and following it with a carbine class in the summer and then another... Keep in mind many of the classes I attend are pistol and carbine classes.

I also believe that classes help keep your skills sharp. I have found that its easy to get lax while training on your own and that classes are a great tool for correcting bad habits. I think classes are a very valuable tool to the shooting community and one that should be taken advantage of as often as possible.

An untrained gun owner IMHO is a liability to all gun owners, themselves and their families.

[Hawk]

Interesting question George....


Rifles are no different. I think anybody who owns a rifle and doesn't know its manual of arms and how to employ it as a weapon, is a FOOL and lazy. If you don't want to put the time, effort, energy and the financial resources to learn your weapons... DONT BUY THEM.

I think I understand what you are saying and agree to an extent, but I think you need to qualify a portion of the statement (in bold) a bit so you don't include every rifle owning person in the U.S.
I know plenty of expert rifle shooters who have never trained to use their rifles as "weapons" and will never employ their rifles as weapons. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to include everyone and every use of a rifle in that statement.

[d90king]

I think I understand what you are saying and agree to an extent, but I think you need to qualify a portion of the statement (in bold) a bit so you don't include every rifle owning person in the U.S.
I know plenty of expert rifle shooters who have never trained to use their rifles as "weapons" and will never employ their rifles as weapons. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to include everyone and every use of a rifle in that statement.

I think thats a great point. All firearms are WEAPONS by their very nature. You are correct that there are plenty of highly skilled precision shooters, trap shooters etc.. My point is more geared to using a weapon in a self defense scenario. I do however believe that wether its shotguns for trap or a precision rifle, shooters that use those platforms should also master the platform of their sport/trade...

Good point, my comments were not meant as blanket statement...

[Shawn.L]

Right now I use my carry gun in the home.

I own much better harware for that job.

But I am not comfortable employing a tool I have not had formal training on for defense.

So next year I am taking a carbine course.

yes, psitols was a priority for me, and I feel for the avaerage citizen looking to defned themselves and their loved ones it should be. But that doesnt mean I wont learn to use other tool for other enviroments as well.

I dont think I actually know anybody, personally, who trains hard with a rifle and doesnt hasnt already done pistol training. Maybe those guys are out there, looking for a weekend playing rambo, but they sure arent friends of mine.

of course there are plenty of guys with load out vests and no clue............. or any training, but i guess this topic is not in refernce to them, as thats a whole nutha story..........

[LittleRedToyota]

another idea that has not seemed to come up yet in this thread is transfer of skills between pistol and carbine.

imho, if one learns to shoot a pistol well, they will be able to pick up a carbine and shoot it fairly well also. going the other way does not work as well.

this is not to say that there is no value in carbine specific training and is not meant to discount the importance of learning your specific platform--even among different types of pistols or different types of carbines.

however, i personally do think starting with pistols can be good because they are harder to shoot well. if you can master sight pic, trigger press, follow-through, and all that good stuff on a pistol, transferring it to shooting a carbine is not that hard. on the other hand, learning that stuff on a carbine and then transferring it to pistol is more difficult.

of course, there is a lot more to using a carbine for defense than just fundamental marksmanship. learning how to move with it, retain it, clear malfunctions, etc. is also very important...some of that stuff also transfers from pistol fairly well, but certainly not all of it. so don't take this post the wrong way.

[d90king]

another idea that has not seemed to come up yet in this thread is transfer of skills between pistol and carbine.

imho, if one learns to shoot a pistol well, they will be able to pick up a carbine and shoot it fairly well also. going the other way does not work as well.

this is not to say that there is no value in carbine specific training and is not meant to discount the importance of learning your specific platform--even among different types of pistols or different types of carbines.

however, i personally do think starting with pistols can be good because they are harder to shoot well. if you can master sight pic, trigger press, follow-through, and all that good stuff on a pistol, transferring it to shooting a carbine is not that hard. on the other hand, learning that stuff on a carbine and then transferring it to pistol is more difficult.

of course, there is a lot more to using a carbine for defense than just fundamental marksmanship. learning how to move with it, retain it, clear malfunctions, etc. is also very important...some of that stuff also transfers from pistol fairly well, but certainly not all of it. so don't take this post the wrong way.

That is the best point made so far! Trigger work on a pistol definitely transitions well to long arms. Proper trigger control IMHO is one of the single most important factors to shooting well.


I have had to relearn triggers from simply transitioning to my P30 from my 1911's.... It has taken nearly 6k rounds for me to get used to and get me where I need to be, just to use it as a carry pistol.

I will say loading 9mm double stack mags is a PITA compared to my .45 1911's...

[Carnes]

Every time I am at Wally World I look at the gun rags and see review after review of carbine courses.

Sex sells, and carbine courses are much more sexy than pistol courses. These people are trying to sell more copies of their magazine and the average reader would rather fantasize about an EOTWAWKI last stand with a tricked out AR and drop-leg holster with a silenced MK23 than to just think about the more 'mundane' self defense situations.

I think, as others have pointed out, the people that actually participate in the training (rather than read about it in gun rags) tend to take a more realistic approach to training.

[462-SERV]

Good thoughts guys. IMHO you will need your hands to fight to your pistol long before you use your pistol to fight to your rifle.

I think that the use your pistol to fight to your rifle is part of the romantic fantasy about an individuals last stand or something. I was never in a situation to get back to my trunk for my shotty or AR, most of the time I had been smart enough or knew enough about the situation to take a long gun with me as I got out of the car.

Kinda reminds me at the gun shows when I am talking to someone about edged weapons and another guy smirks and says "that is why I carry a gun" as he points down to his pistol with a zip tie around it. While I stand there with a live blade.

What kills me about the carbine articles is the guys running around in mulitcam with chest rigs. The vast majority of the time I deployed an M4 it had a 20 rnd mag in it for going prone on the hood of my car, and on the way out of the car I put took a 30 rnd mag out of my drivers side map compartment and put in in my reaction side rear pocket. And guess what, that is how I trained. - George

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yeah I know people with truck guns, but not that many anymore.

I do carry my pistol/s and cell phones. If something happens in my home or office, we plan/train to gather up each other and retreat to the most defensible room/s and that is where the long guns are. The first step, ie gathering up the family/staff is when the cell phones and pistols are the only option. .

I don't see the need for "going all tactical" ever. But everyone here can put two magazines from the carbine into a paper plate and would, despite the castle doctrine, retreat while armed to safety outside of the home/office if it was safer than holding out in place. The protocol here is guns and phones and lots of warnings to attackers that the 911 operators will be recording.
Next, calls to lawyers and clergy while going to the hospital for checkups.
After that I am sure come the numerous interviews

I think most people would be better off skipping a pistol, shotgun, carbine course and taking a course with legal and personal implications from self defense and having an introductory meeting with a firearms attorney, then putting their numbers in cell phones.

When I can I will be taking a couple of people up to New Hampshire for at least one course.

I also want to talk to and hire a new firearms attorney, mine is too far away to do much good.

[PeteG]

There are a lot of good reasons to use a carbine as a primary personal defense weapon. My guns are to stop fights. Rifles stop fights far, far more reliably, at greater distances, with more ease of operation, than any hand gun. As fighting tools, from contact distance out, they are far, far superior to any hand gun in every way EXCEPT being able to carry them around. (The list of advantages is too long to post ... and those don't already know most of that list would not likely have thier understanding improved any by reading it.)

The assumption that "most people" will not have a hand gun a hand gun at their job, at school or at the grocery store, even if it is a correct assumption, does not negate the value of a rifle at home (where we spend at least half our time) on the farm (where some of us spend 90% of our time) or in a work place where firearms are permitted (e.g., in our own businesses). I have a carbine handy in my home and in my office; which are the two places I am found the most.

(Pennsylvania law prohibits the carrying of a useable long gun in a motor vehicle, but in states where rifles can be carried loaded and ready, add that to the list of places where a carbine would be useful.)

The argument one will "not likely" have thier carbine with them so they should train only with thier hand guns also overlooks the fact "most people" don't have thier hand guns with them when they are out and about, either. I would not conclude from that fact that people who keep thier pistols in the bed-stand should not train with them.

I firmly believe that if one plans to use a weapon in any circumstance, even as a contingency one does not expect will actually come about, then training with that weapon is the only wise and responsible course of action. Conversely, not training with that weapon is foolish and irresponsible.

Then there is the fact that may kinds of trouble one will encounter "on the street" are such that "most people" will never get their hand on their concealed pistol. Following the specious logic of the unwarranted assumption, we should not train with hand guns, either, since our safety will best be served by training for unarmed, contact-distance defense.

While I happen to believe that one's first training priority should be to train to defend themselves from sudden, contact distance assault while unarmed, that does not lead me to the conclusion thattraining with firearms is wasted time.

In short, arguments about why train with a carbine rather than a hand gun are specious. If we could predict where we might be or what we might be doing when trouble finds us, we would never let trouble find us (except maybe some of us who have mental problems).

If trouble finds me (again), I want to maximize the chances I will have a rifle handy, and will not have to rely upon an inefficient, puny hand gun. I also want to maximize the chances that I will use that rifle for its indended purpose efficiently, without a thought for how to operate the weapon. Only training with the rifles will enable me to do that.

In addition, I note that training in any firearms discipline will carry over to the other firearms disciplines IF one is using the methods and principles of a well thought-out system of firearms training (such as the Modern Method). I shoot pistol, carbine, rifle and shotgun (when I shoot shotgun, which is not any more) the same way. Same stance, same posture, same breathing, same trigger press, same objectives, same mind set ... some of the manual of arms changes.

Finally, carbines are a lot of fun. That, without more, is a good reason to take a carbine course.