Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    OK, so I have a training meeting to go to tonight. We have a new First Sergeant who is pretty uptight. Last month one my guys in my platoon got into a little trouble over carrying concealed to drill (just a talking to by the First Sergeant. As both myself and the platoon leader are both very pro-gun, it ended there. I told him that it was bullshit, just next time don't mention that you have it to anyone!). The First Sergeant said to put it away or next time he'd get an article 15. Nevermind the recent tragedy at Ft. Hood - Why should the military have the ability to defend themselves at drill?

    Anyhow, I digress. I brought up the above story to show the attitude of the first sergeant. I'm not gonna say whether I have ever carried to drill before , but is there anything banning carrying firearms into a national guard armory (not a military installation like FTIG)? I can't think of a reason why not. In fact, I know that gun shows have taken place at armories across the state. Does anyone know for a fact? And if so, do you have the statutes saying so? Thank you.
    loose≠lose; you're=you are; 'your' shows possession.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    I looked and could not find any statutes.

    As I understand it, the National Guard Armories are property of the Commonwealth here in PA. However, civil law is not the only applicable meter here. The Uniform Code of Military Justice also comes into play. Since an article 15 can be issued for just about anything, violating a "rule" could have consequences.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_NEPhila View Post
    I looked and could not find any statutes.

    As I understand it, the National Guard Armories are property of the Commonwealth here in PA. However, civil law is not the only applicable meter here. The Uniform Code of Military Justice also comes into play. Since an article 15 can be issued for just about anything, violating a "rule" could have consequences.
    Yeah, I should have clarified. I guess I am really looking for two answers. First off, tonight I am going in civilian clothes and am not getting paid so they can't hit me with UCMJ (well, I'm sure they could find a way, but it'd be a stretch). So I am curious about the civilian laws. Secondly, if anyone knows the military legality of it on a drill weekend, that would be great.

    And I do know concealed is concealed for drills ... just wondering beyond that.
    loose≠lose; you're=you are; 'your' shows possession.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    I think technically they are State Property. I have attended Homecomings for Friends and Associates at these Facilities so I am hoping it is lawful.

    Not sure if being assigned to the Armory's Unit, like a Student Code of Conduct on Campuses control Student's behavior, puts one in a different legal status and therefore subject to the UCMJ and an Article 15.

    Be safe (and shhh, it is a secret).

    Scott

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    I highly doubt the PA National Guard would allow carry on drill weekends. I cannot point to specific rules concerning that topic. However, you should pose the question through your chain of command. I would bet the answer would be "NO." Their games, their rules. Also check SOP's at the company, battalion and division levels. I am almost positive that you will find something in there prohibiting carrying during drill.

    As for going in for some activity and not officially being on drill you answered your own question. If they really wanted to, an article 15 would stick and be costly. You will not find any statutes protecting you from this. This is a lot like an employer who forbids firearms on their property.

    In short you can do whatever you choose to do. However, there may be consequences.
    Join the groups protecting your rights from the fools trying to take them from you!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    Quote Originally Posted by max384 View Post
    OK, so I have a training meeting to go to tonight. We have a new First Sergeant who is pretty uptight. Last month one my guys in my platoon got into a little trouble over carrying concealed to drill (just a talking to by the First Sergeant. As both myself and the platoon leader are both very pro-gun, it ended there. I told him that it was bullshit, just next time don't mention that you have it to anyone!). The First Sergeant said to put it away or next time he'd get an article 15. Nevermind the recent tragedy at Ft. Hood - Why should the military have the ability to defend themselves at drill?

    Anyhow, I digress. I brought up the above story to show the attitude of the first sergeant. I'm not gonna say whether I have ever carried to drill before , but is there anything banning carrying firearms into a national guard armory (not a military installation like FTIG)? I can't think of a reason why not. In fact, I know that gun shows have taken place at armories across the state. Does anyone know for a fact? And if so, do you have the statutes saying so? Thank you.
    The bold and underlined above was a very poor decision. You are undermining the chain of command here and implicitly permitting activity which has been forbidden. In a sense, you told the soldier that it was ok and that his superiors were not correct. Bad move.

    Leadership in any organization will consist mostly of what you do, not what you say to do. If you do something (come in late for example), it will be difficult to discipline another for the same infraction.

    Telling your soldier to not tell anyone about a concealed weapon which (I am guessing here) was against some rule established by the employer (in this case PANG) is detrimental to discipline and order. It is kind of like saying to a son "your mom says no, but you can do it as long as she does not know about it." Bad idea.
    Join the groups protecting your rights from the fools trying to take them from you!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_NEPhila View Post
    The bold and underlined above was a very poor decision. You are undermining the chain of command here and implicitly permitting activity which has been forbidden. In a sense, you told the soldier that it was ok and that his superiors were not correct. Bad move.

    Leadership in any organization will consist mostly of what you do, not what you say to do. If you do something (come in late for example), it will be difficult to discipline another for the same infraction.

    Telling your soldier to not tell anyone about a concealed weapon which (I am guessing here) was against some rule established by the employer (in this case PANG) is detrimental to discipline and order. It is kind of like saying to a son "your mom says no, but you can do it as long as she does not know about it." Bad idea.
    I completely disagree. And thanks for getting this thread completely off track. Next time PM me with this.

    I feel that he has the right to protect himself and I will let him know that. Just because the rule is in place, does not make it right. It should also be pointed out that the soldier in question is a fellow NCO that I have served with in the same unit for almost 10 years. There was also no standing rule that any of us knew about prohibiting the carrying of a weapon at that time.
    loose≠lose; you're=you are; 'your' shows possession.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    Nope. The "legality" of dealing with a situation like this comes down to the Military and the UCMJ as well as PA statutes. PA statutes do not forbid it, this does not make it kosher. If you are in a supervisory position and your superior has taken issue with this very topic then you have the duty of care to either understand that it is not permitted or submit in writing (for accountability purposes) a request to your superiors on this topic.

    You will not find a "law" or "rule" making it ok for you to do something you can reasonable expect your employer to forbid (due to your previous encounter). It appears you are looking for some justification that exists to do a "gotcha" defense after the fact if indeed you were caught carrying while under employment. This is not advised. This would also explain your apparent desire not to pursue this through official channels (i.e. ask your chain of command).

    To clarify, this is not about rights... it is about employer/employee relations and rules. You have every right to not follow the rules of your employer, yet you also have the right to suffer the consequences.

    I am assuming that the First Sergeant is in a position of superior responsibility over you and your charge. Thus, he could be considered an agent of your employer and his instructions as instructions from the employer.

    The issue here is not so much the legality as it is whether or not your employer will permit such activities. I am willing to bet that the PANG will not allow concealed weapons during drill or any other "official" business. However, you know how to find the answer to that question...
    Join the groups protecting your rights from the fools trying to take them from you!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    As a 1SG and still serving I will tell that carrying any weapon that was not issued to you while in uniform is a recipe for a career ending action. Telling a Soldier to conceal a weapion and NOT tell anyone is also a great way to lose rank, get dishonorably discharged and get a free trip to the grey bar hotel.
    On a side note I support the second ammend fully and carry when I am out of uniform and in PA and would love to carry in uniform but I fully understand what could happen and what would happen if it was known.

    I have a small number of other issues that I would discuss in a PM but you don't seem to want to hear them.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Legality of carrying in a national guard armory???

    Last I knew (and I admit I'm 10 years behind developments since I've been retired for that long) UCMJ in general and Article 15 in particular did not apply to inactive duty training (IADT) assemblies. Although UCMJ applies during Annual Training and Active Duty for Training (ADT) and Active Duty periods.

    Bear in mind also that I was Active and Reserve Army, not NG, so if there is something specific to PA NG, I would appreciate being educated on the subject.


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

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