It happened to a member, it could happen to you!

[unloved]

gnbrotz recently posted this link in another thread.
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...hawley-pd.html
The incident detailed in the thread took place, and was resolved several months before I became a member, so I had never seen this before.
I read through the thread and was struck by several points that are very relevant to discussions that are presently under way, and to a couple of recurring subjects.


What follows is taken from post #50 if anyone wants to read the entire post. In fact, I recommend you do so, as I have chopped the post up to the point that continuity is completely lost, and it doesn't make much sense. I've just picked out relevant portions because it's a long post.

Heavily edited for brevity, and to highlight points relevant to this thread. Emphasis added.

Officer B then asked me if I had any weapons in the vehicle. I responded in the affirmative. I then handed Officer B my CCW license and told him I had a loaded .45 cal pistol(S/N XXXXXX) on my hip and two rifles in the back of the Jeep. Officer B asked if he can inspect my weapons and run them to check if they are stolen. I complied and stepped out of my vehicle to allow Officer B to unholster my pistol.

All of my weapons came back clean. Officer B then asked why the pistol was not registered in PA. I responded that I bought the pistol in CA in 1988. At first I could not remember where I bought the pistol and incorrectly told Officers B and C I bought it at a pawn shop. I was confusing it with another pistol I bought around the same time, but traded for another firearm a few years later. Officers B and C then asked why I did not register the gun in PA. I told them since I bought the gun in CA, and brought it with me when I moved back to PA in 2000, there was no requirement to register it. The Officers disagreed with me and asked if I had proof I own this firearm.

One of the Troopers asked to see my CCW again. I again surrendered my CCW License to the Trooper.

I was told to put my hands behind my back. The Trooper told me my CCW was revoked and I was illegally carrying a loaded firearm concealed. The trooper then said R Charles R Jr. has a revoked CCW and I am in trouble. I countered that I am not R Charles R Jr, but R Anthony R. The Trooper then said OK I will run it under R Anthony R. That is when he claimed I had a Sportsman’s CCW permit and not a Self Defense permit. I asked the Trooper what the Permit physically said on the upper right hand corner and he said Self Defense. I said that is what I applied for and was issued, so I was carrying legally, the Trooper then told me I was responsible for what the computer said not what my card said.

The Deputy confirmed my CCW permit was valid and for Self Defense.

(Deputy told jsoc that he)
may face a six month suspension for losing the permit.

Don't talk to the police! LEOs acting in their official capacity are not your friends. Refusing to be meekly compliant at DUI checkpoints is not unnecessarily making their job harder. It is not impolite to assert your rights. Being uncooperative does not show a lack of courtesy. It is self protection. Allowing yourself to be disarmed for officer safety won't make you look better. Being cooperative will not help you. Keeping your self-incriminating mouth shut may. Volunteering that you have firearms in your vehicle won't necessarily bode well for you.

It is vitally important to know what your rights are. It is important to have a working knowledge of the law regarding the ownership, possession, and carry of firearms. In the incident described, we have local police, PSP, and Sheriff's Deputies who think that the "REASON TO CARRY" listed on your LTCF actually means something. We have numerous LEOs who think that firearms must be registered. We have numerous LEOs who think they may require that you prove your ownership of firearms, and confiscate them if you can't do so. We have LEOs who apparently don't understand the difference between a LTCF and a Sportsman's Firearm Permit. We have a Deputy, and presumably a Sherrif, who think that losing your card is cause for a six month suspension of your LTCF. Also that Sheriff's have the authority to suspend LTCFs.

It is important to be accurate in our speech. Amongst ourselves, with issuing authorities, with LEOs, and especially with those less knowledgeable. We must demand that issuing authorities are accurate in their speech. I can't help but to think that there would be much less confusion all around if we all call our licenses what they are. They are Licenses to Carry Firearms. Not CCWs, not CWPs, not permits! This may seem like a minor concern. Remember that there is a PA permit that has to do with handguns. That permit isn't good for the things that a LTCF is. It's not just semantics. We need to use the proper nomenclature every time, always. We're pretty good about it, but every once in a while, I see someone claim that it doesn't matter. It does.

None of the LEOs involved in this incident suffered any consequences. I can only assume that all of them are likely to continue with the same type of behavior.

[H22ate]

I was just reading the thread "quick question" and watched both videos. I never really payed attention to how the law are so "sneaky" and can bite an innocent citizen in the ass. Theres some good stuff in there that I never knew.

[bigandy1966]

http://www.bobtuley.com/gun_seizures.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

[Montana]

Your link is broken.

[unloved]

Your link is broken.

That's weird. It was fine earlier today, and I didn't change anything. Anyway, thanks for the heads up. I fixed it.

[kadar]

Your link is broken.

http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...hawley-pd.html

[Montana]

Thanks for fixing it so quick. I'd been trying to find the post for 2 hours and gave up in frustration.

[unloved]

Thanks for fixing it so quick. I'd been trying to find the post for 2 hours and gave up in frustration.

You're welcome.
See the blue button, with the right-pointing arrow on it, next to your name in the quote? Click that in any quote, and it'll take you to the quoted post.

[ehidle]

Here they are again:





Never talk to police. Ever.

[ErSwnn]

Unloved.....thanks for the repost. I was discussing this in Quick Question but the link took me to AR-15.com and I couldn't find this particular post. In trying to learn more about why some people are so adament about how to conduct yourself during a contact, this was the example I was being steered towards.

It's easy enough to prove that sometimes the police can be pretty uninformed, and sometimes downright intentionally malfesent. That leads me to wonder...why? Are these incidents powertrips, personal agendas, or "get evens" for a detainee's personality? I'm really trying to wrap my head around these events and potentials. I have never had a negative encounter while carrying, and I always carry. But obviously they occur. What triggers an encounter to go so far south?