What to do when a grown man has a bizarre violent outburst

[wjph2624]

Here is a clearer and more concise version of my last post. I've been improving my ability to make my writing concise so I thought I would apply that here.

When a man is screaming obscenities and kicking a woman's car in public (though with nobody else in the immediate vicinity to witness it), what should one do? Is it best just to watch and stay off the lunatic's radar? Should you tell him to stop? What if he comes after you and you're carrying? In such a situation using or branding a gun isn't a desirable option. So if you are carrying, might it be best to not do anything? By saying "stop it" is one acting unwisely? I mean, even if you know how to fight well with your fists and you have a large body, wouldn't the last thing you want is to get into a tussle where the crazy guy guy could get your gun?

[rwilson452]

As he wasn't putting anyone in immediate danger there isn't cause to use deadly force. Property damage doesn't count. All you can really do without putting yourself in danger is be a good witness. Once she left and the incident was over, calling the police wouldn't do anything. She would need to do that and take him to civil court for damages.

Remember to even think about using deadly force there must be an immediate threat of great bodily harm or death. Your story indicates this was not the case.

[FormerUser123]

paragraphs....

[D10]

Once she left and the incident was over

Not entirely true but I have to agree with the rest of your reply. Because there was no immediate danger to either the driver nor you, drawing a gun, in such a situation, can cost you jail time.

Many people think that having an LTCF and carrying a gun will save them from bodily harm. The opposite is true in most cases.

I see that you have not applied for an LTCF yet, nor did you buy a gun. There are several classes that you can attend to once you obtain your LTCF and your gun, and my advice to you is this: Join one of these classes and they will teach you everything that you should know. Further more the "Ayoob" book might be interesting to read as well.

And for the love of God.......remember this line,

Sometimes, even when you do carry a gun, it is best to walk away.

[wjph2624]

Thanks for the reply. I would like to assure everyone that I believe you should do all you can to minimize the risk of having to use your gun because a gun should never be pulled or used unless all other means to protect yourself have been exhausted. I am aware that the events and the man's behavior did not pose an immediate threat of great bodily harm or death. I never would even pull a gun on somebody unless the stakes were much higher than they were during the incident I witnessed. I simply want to know if it would have been appropriate to verbally encourage him to cease and desist his criminal behavior, without approaching him. If I did that and he started to attack me and I could not flee fast enough, wouldn't it then be appropriate to pull the gun on him? In such a situation I would like to ensure my own safety and not draw attention to myself, but I think there is reason to believe he would have stopped kicking her car had I informed him that I was witnessing his crimes and would tell the police exactly what happened. It's just a weird situation. If I had a gun I probably would have run away like a coward to avoid a situation where I could possibly need to draw my gun. I just want to learn from this so I do the right thing if some lunatic would do this to me or my car.

I know she would have to go to the police in order for the thug to be brought to justice. I called the Downingtown police non-emergency number and talked to a woman who had an officer call me. The officer made sure he understood what happened and took my name, address and date of birth. I told him that this guy needed to be arrested for what he did and that I hoped the woman calls them so he can be brought to justice. He will call me if they need my further assistance. So if she calls and chooses to press charges (civil or criminal) they will contact me if they need a witness statement. I just wanted to do all I could to let justice prevail - she has to call the police now.

[ViperHummel]

In a situation like that, I feel a "different" approach to the escalation of force would be advised. And by that, I mean simply ask the man if he is ok. There are times when irrational behavior can be curbed by showing concern for both parties involved. Was he acting inappropriately? Yes. Could his actions eventually led to something more dangerous? Possibly. As it has been said different ways above and in other topics, the LTCF is not a license to play sheriff in the wild west. Never say you have a gun, never draw that weapon unless you damn well are ready to pull the trigger and accept the responsibility. Just don't neglect your duties as a citizen and as a human to protect others in need, gun or no gun. That is just my two cents.

[Franky4Fingers]

I think you did just fine.

Heres why

You have to get real for a minute, a guy kicking a car isn't directly hurting anyone. Us lazy, spoiled, rich, Americans put alot of value on needless things to the point we reassign them real values. For instance; we think something like a car is our life, so to speak. A cell phone or iPod is more along the lines of bodily harm. And if someone were to ever lay a hand on us...heaven helps us all...theres bloody murder to be had. If we have the slightest disturbance in noise, especially us irritated Pennsylvanians, or anything that disturbs our daily routine, its horrible. (I realize thats a jumbled thought, but hopefully you got its meaning)

So, keeping that in mind, look what happened today..........nothing. A guy wigged out and kicked this car like a psycho. Cause for alarm? Most certainly, so what should you do? Providing no one is in immediate danger, do what others said already, just be a good wittiness, so IF the cops do arrive, you can tell them what happened...but nothing did, thankfully.

If you would have said anything to this guy, he would of gone haywire, no doubt, and IF you had a gun, you might have to draw it. But that would be your fault wouldnt it? You got involved with something that wasnt your business and on one was being hurt. No one is being raped, kidnapped, beaten, stabbed, shot, etc. Those are REAL problems, and REAL reasons to draw your weapon and interfere.

That lady in the car can go home, call her insurance, and have her car buffed back. Go about your day citizens.

[emsjeep]

She had good means of escape, not in immediate danger. Good for you for thinking through all of this, +1 your way. Most people would just walk away and not give a crap. If he pulled her out of the car and started assaulting her, then that would be the time to step in IF you are ok with putting yourself at such risk. I look at it this way, if she was my girlfriend/mother I would want you to help out, and so when presented with such a situation, knowing the consequences, I would act as if it were my family involved.

[wjph2624]

I know that a LTCF isn't a license to be superman or a wild west sheriff. If anything, carrying a gun is a reason to be more careful and try even harder not to get yourself into a life threatening situation. I'm obsessed with driving safely and respecting the power of a car and I drive more conservatively that at least 80% of the people on the road I'd say. Multiply this mentality by 1000 and you know how I feel about my responsibilities as a citizen carrying a gun and the seriousness of the consequences of using that gun. For heaven's sake I think that taking one swig of an alcoholic beverage is irresponsible, even if you aren't going to drive. The only reason I even thought about saying something to the guy was because he went from just being a normal person walking to a guy kicking her car and calling her a bitch and then his kicks got harder and harder and his obscenities worse. At such a rate of escalation, I don't see what was stopping the lunatic from hurting her. You really had to be there I guess to understand what I'm talking about.

This situation opened my eyes up to why one may need a gun. There is a lot of sick people out there. Somebody like the lunatic I witnessed would no doubt attack a person for no good reason. It just showed me how vulnerable to being a victim of criminal violence you really are when you step out of your house. It shows how quickly things can go bad and how off guard you can be caught by criminals. The fact that this particular guy called her a bitch at the onset of his violent outburst, indicates that he may be a cowardly male chauvinist and may not have even done the same thing to me had I been in that woman's position. But you see what I'm saying. If I am in danger of being assaulted for no reason at a crowded shopping center in a good part of Downingtown, then I am certainly vulnerable nearly everywhere I go. I don't necessarily like guns and I definitely hate violence but I strongly believe in self-defense and justice. I'd be a gun-ban nazi and have an irrational fear of guns if I was operating on the mental capacity that people like Josh Sugarmann are.

Well, thanks everyone for the feedback. I wanted to utilize this as a learning experience and you helped me with that. The best way to learn is from experience in real life. I would have probably done the same thing I did if I was armed or not, but I may have felt guilty afterward for not telling the guy to settle down. If he opened her car door or indicated he wanted to get to her, I think it may have been appropriate to tell him to stop. At the very least it would give her time to get out of there. Everyone here is right about this though. I have been so isolated from these types of things my whole life that this guy really scared me. Again, thanks for the feedback.

[tlgpa]

My question is, what should I have done had I been armed?

Exactly what you did unarmed. No one was injured or potentially injured.
Except you (and the other woman) probably should've called 911. The woman with the car may have been too worked up to call 911 and went home to do it. You could've helped identify Mr. Psycho.

I think it would be wise not to approach the guy, but I would tell him to stop and let him know that I'm witnessing his violent illegal outburst and will be happy to talk to the cops. If he came toward me, I would retreat a few steps and warn him to stop. If he did not, I would pull my gun on him and re-warn him to stop. At this point, the cops will be on their way. This guy was insane though so I may have ended up shooting him had he left me no choice and I do not want to shoot anybody.

These are all legitimate "what if's", however not in your encounter. Your encounter went just as it should. The woman could flee in complete safety.... and she did.

This applies to you.
http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...lf-protection/

This applies to others.
http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...other-persons/

If you're going to carry, it's in your best interest to read and understand them. And there's plenty of threads here to help with understanding them.