Would this be justified?

[Pro2A]

There was an incident the other night out front of my house. There were about 12 kids between the ages of 12 and 15 out front on skateboards being obnoxiously loud. It was around 1900 and I was on my computer in the front room so I could hear them clearly fighting out front. I poked my head out the window when I saw two kids brawling in the street. The one kid got up and ran off towards my house down the sidewalk. Another kid went running after him screaming “I’m gonna kick your ass”! Got him and started beating the crap out of him again in the street. I almost wanted to step out and intervene and tell the kids to get lost. I told my wife to call the police instead. The police showed up a little later shortly after the kids dispersed.

The kid was on the ground getting the crap beat out of him, I was OC as I usually am at home… this is another grey area I wonder about. Could I have legally intervened and used my firearm (either holstered or in hand) as a deterrent to scare the kids off to keep this kid on the ground from getting harmed more? I mean one against 12 is bad odds, but someone is getting hurt. My firearm could have put me on equal footing easily with these punks. Or should I have stayed back as I did and called the police and have them show up after the fact when I could have stopped it right then? I split both morally and legally on this issue.

What do you guys think?

[Steve_NEPhila]

To insert yourself into that situation is dangerous, foolish and unreasonable. What you did was appropriate for the described situation.

There are a few things that need to be understood: Those "punks" were probably your neighbors kids, only two of them were fighting (the others were neither a threat nor acting criminally) and it was probably not a life threatening situation for anyone involved.

All is well that ended well, you survived, the kids survived (although egos may have been casualties) and no one was locked up. That counts as a win.

[knight0334]

Legally intervene = yes. Gun = leave it holstered until someone's life is at risk.

Going out with the gun in hand, or even drawing it when it isn't a life/death critical situation can land you in the same holding cell as the guy doing the beating.

[Pro2A]

Legally intervene = yes. Gun = leave it holstered until someone's life is at risk.

Going out with the gun in hand, or even drawing it when it isn't a life/death critical situation can land you in the same holding cell as the guy doing the beating.

So I could have legally intervened and told them to get lost all while OC and holstered, obviously using that as a deterrent for the kids not to take it further?

[dc dalton]

Absolutely NOT!

Either leave the gun in the house or secure in it's holster. You were in no danger, nor was there any threat to you. The threat to the kid getting beat up would be questionable (meaning did it fall under life threatening) ... in fact you would have been 'interjecting' yourself into the situation and by drawing your weapon you would have been 100% in the wrong.

[mjfletcher]

http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...other-persons/

18 Pa.C.S. § 506: Use of force for the protection of other persons
(a) General rule.--The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(1) the actor would be justified under section 505 of this title (relating to use of force in self-protection) in using such force to protect himself against the injury he believes to be threatened to the person whom he seeks to protect;
(2) under the circumstances as the actor believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would be justified in using such protective force; and
(3) the actor believes that his intervention is necessary for the protection of such other person.
(b) Exceptions.--Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this section:
(1) When the actor would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand before using force in self-protection, he is not obliged to do so before using force for the protection of another person, unless he knows that he can thereby secure the complete safety of such other person.
(2) When the person whom the actor seeks to protect would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand if he knew that he could obtain complete safety by so doing, the actor is obliged to try to cause him to do so before using force in his protection if the actor knows that he can obtain complete safety in that way.
(3) Neither the actor nor the person whom he seeks to protect is obliged to retreat when in the dwelling or place of work of the other to any greater extent than in his own.

You would have been justified in intervening (though unholstering would have been questionable as there didn't appear to be an imminent threat of serious injury/death based on your description), but whether or not that is/was the best course of actions is something only you can determine as you were there at the time.

[HiredGoon]

Not saying this would be the right thing to do...but since you were already OCing, perhaps just walking outside and being sure that the punk doing the beating saw your HOLSTERED firearm may have de-escalated the situation. That is, if you felt the absolute need to get involved more than just calling 911.

Again, as said, under only life-threatening circumstances would you have drawn your gun.

[knight0334]

So I could have legally intervened and told them to get lost all while OC and holstered, obviously using that as a deterrent for the kids not to take it further?

Yes. You witnessed a breach of the peace and an actual crime of violence happening, and could have legally intervened, and even arrested someone.

However the severity of what was going on probably came nowhere close enough to warrant drawing a firearm. While you are allowed to use "force" to make an arrest(§508.b) or even to stop the commission of crimes(§508.d), you are limited in that application. And while the actual drawing your weapon and pointing isn't deadly force until you pull the trigger, it will most likely be seen as excessive without immediate risk of death, serious bodily injury, rape or kidnapping if you haven't tried to physically intervene without going to the holster first.

[Nic]

I once used a more creative way of intervening in a similar situation... as I was on the phone with the police, I hit the panic button on my car key fob and the punks ran for the hills.

[R.Thompson]

it was probably not a life threatening situation for anyone involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM6B97DbJkE
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ing.html?cat=8
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=52047

There are many more if you search on google for teen beatings.

Was it really a one on one? Or was it two fighting, but the others stopping it from breaking up? How do you know it wasn't going to escalate? How would you have felt if the kid had been severely beaten or died on your doorstep? How would you have explained to his family that you did nothing?

I'm glad though that in this case everything turned out ok.

Would I have done any differently? Honestly I don't know - especially if I was unarmed. But I'd like to think I would step up and do the right thing.