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Thread: Secession: Timing Is Everything
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November 5th, 2009, 12:09 PM #11
Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
Really? I'm an atheist and I believe we have natural and inalienable rights. And I'm quite certain I'm not the only one. Robert Nozick, probably the most important modern libertarian philosopher, agreed with John Locke's principle of natural rights (Locke basically created the idea and thought they came from God), even though Nozick himself was atheist. Then there's Ayn Rand, who I think sucks big donkey dicks, but a lot of libertarians and conservatives in this country seem to like her-- also an atheist. Also probably plenty of atheists and agnostics on this very board and in the Libertarian Party who believe in natural rights.
"When law becomes despotic, morals are relaxed, and vice versa."-- Honore de Balzac, The Wild Ass's Skin...huh, huh..Balzac...Wild Ass...huh, huh
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November 5th, 2009, 01:46 PM #12Member
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Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
See: No Treason, by Lysander Spooner. No arguments with 1(b) & (c) or 2.
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November 5th, 2009, 02:36 PM #13Super Member
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Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
Perhaps you misspoke: there is no such thing as freedom FROM religion. But you are correct that the freedom OF religion would look rather different than it does under current USSC jurisprudence. I think free exercise would return to prominence, and the meaning of the word "establishment" would return to something more closely aligned with its dictionary meaning.
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November 5th, 2009, 02:50 PM #14
Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
You need to stop readin them anarcho-capitalist sites.
On the part of the North, the war was carried on, not to liberate slaves, but by a government that had always perverted and violated the Constitution, to keep the slaves in bondage; and was still willing to do so, if the slaveholders could be thereby induced to stay in the Union.
The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals.
Interesting essay though, I'll try to respond to the more substantive parts of his argument later."When law becomes despotic, morals are relaxed, and vice versa."-- Honore de Balzac, The Wild Ass's Skin...huh, huh..Balzac...Wild Ass...huh, huh
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November 5th, 2009, 03:33 PM #15Senior Member
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Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
I'm not really seeing the conflict. You've simply stated that 'nature' is your 'god' (note the small 'g'). Now, how far you would like to go with that is, of course, up to you. But I'll posit that it's fundamentally flawed logic to declare our rights based upon 'nature'. As the Philosopher Thomas Hobbs noted: "Life in an unregulated state of nature is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Living by the laws and 'rights' of 'nature' could easily justify all kinds of barbarism, but I don't see it leading to a fundamental right to 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'.
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November 5th, 2009, 03:34 PM #16Super Member
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Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
Once again the ever thoughtful Mr. Debs has a well-informed and well-reasoned reply. I don't know if I can even rep you again before more spreading, so here's your +10.
Agreed, that state governments would take over the oppressing, but there would be a great deal less of it, and that's a fact. First, the purses would be much smaller so the scale of abuses would be much diminished. Most states would simply lack the resources to consider anything like the Federal national security state.
Secondly, there is a virtue in having government closer to the people. There is greater accountability when the government is smaller and closer to the governed.
This is related to a question that I think motivates some of the "secession" discussion. In the Founders original vision, state governments were intended to take care of almost everything, and the federal government was supposed to take care of a few things specified in Article I. Federalism has been steadily eroded, and the Feds have encroached, far exceeding the bounds of written constitution. This opens the door for talk of revolution or secession, and not without some justification.
I don't think there is any meaningful distinction between secession and revolution. As others pointed out, our national heritage contains a certain predisposition for not tolerating an abusive and/or unresponsive government. If/when something like that should happen, the response of the spurned central government would depend greatly on the condition at the time. Frankly, economic collapse of the United States is probably more likely than another civil war. Given the current debt load, the government could not likely extend its credit with foreign lenders.
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November 5th, 2009, 04:05 PM #17Member
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Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
Heh... In all honesty, that was the easiest-to-find source of it on Google. My An-Cap days are long over and I don't ever want to revisit them.
I look forward to your analysis of Spooner, though I also think his arguments about "social contracts" hold merit despite an arguably oversimplified analysis of the casus belli for the American Civil War.Last edited by CapnOfMyFate; November 5th, 2009 at 07:06 PM.
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November 5th, 2009, 04:10 PM #18
Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
Aw shucks, dude-- thanks. I'd hit ya up, but the button is broken for the next 24 hours.
Agreed, that state governments would take over the oppressing,
but there would be a great deal less of it, and that's a fact. First, the purses would be much smaller so the scale of abuses would be much diminished. Most states would simply lack the resources to consider anything like the Federal national security state.
Lots of tyrants throughout history and today who have been able to keep a stranglehold on power with few resources as well.
Secondly, there is a virtue in having government closer to the people. There is greater accountability when the government is smaller and closer to the governed.
This is related to a question that I think motivates some of the "secession" discussion. In the Founders original vision, state governments were intended to take care of almost everything, and the federal government was supposed to take care of a few things specified in Article I. Federalism has been steadily eroded, and the Feds have encroached, far exceeding the bounds of written constitution. This opens the door for talk of revolution or secession, and not without some justification.
I don't think there is any meaningful distinction between secession and revolution."When law becomes despotic, morals are relaxed, and vice versa."-- Honore de Balzac, The Wild Ass's Skin...huh, huh..Balzac...Wild Ass...huh, huh
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November 5th, 2009, 04:12 PM #19
Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
Since a state seceding is really just the people of that state, acting through their political organization, deciding to opt out we have a simple enough work around. Hypothetically, the people of PA simply decide to abandon the corporate state of Pennsylvania and organize a new one - Pennsylvania 2.0 or Libertania, for example. Technical problem solved.
There are lots of things that the constitution does not specifically contemplate, secession among them, but might it not then fall under the Tenth?
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.Keep perspective, recognize the good in your enemies and the bad in your friends.
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein, Revolt in 2100
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November 5th, 2009, 08:01 PM #20Super Member
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Re: Secession: Timing Is Everything
Your point is good. Mine is that the functional difference is minimal. The legal splitting of hairs, "is there a right to secede or isn't there" just doesn't matter to the situation on the ground. The historical baggage of "states rights" is unfortunate, because it's a good concept, and that baggage plays like the race card in trumping otherwise reasonable questions of the proper limits of Federalism and the rightful role of the central government. I think those questions are more important today than any other time since 1860, and the context couldn't be more different.
The question of whether states have the right to leave the union will never be conclusively answered, and I do not agree with the notion that it was settled by the Civil War. I think the Founders left no avenue out of the Union deliberately, being painfully aware of the deficiencies of the Confederation (referring to 1781-1789). But I also think the Declaration of Independence asserts a natural right; the right of revolution. The consent of the governed must come into play, and when that consent is withdrawn, there is no compulsion that can justify further rule by the spurned government. The essay by Spooner is rather good on that account.
As I suspected, I'm supposed to spread it around more. Either I'm stingy, or the computer wants me to be a whore with the whole "rep" thingy...
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