Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    Right, wrong, or different the majority of armed, "trained", people being involved in shootings in the US are police. My experience is that they have a hard enough time getting cops to qualify in sterile conditions much less adding any stress or thought of tactics. What we do when it comes for firearms trickles down from three places and the supreme court tells us that training at least for the police needs to be recent, relevant, and realistic so lets take a look at their sources and how they translate to you walking down the street, armed trying to protect a loved one.

    Military- recent could be. Relevant, nope, you are probably not going have an M4, and will be walking down a city street in the US, not a bombed out city in Iraq. Realistic, nope, you are not part of a team and will probably not even have one other shooter with you. And if you do chances are you are not trained to work together.

    Police- recent could be. Relevant, nope, whether they are in or out of uniform as soon as they say "POLICE" they are acting under the color of law and have protections the citizen does not enjoy. Many police involved shootings are the result of a call for service or at least contact initiated by the officer. For the citizen it will be the bad guy who initiates the contact. I have seen some officers that were awesome on the street fall apart in off duty scenarios when that are out of uniform and don't have a radio on. Realistic, again not really, since seldom will a citizen ever get a chance to deploy their pistol like police do prior to many shootings.

    Competition shooting- Recent, very much so. Relevant- depends on the type of competition. Very little is done in low light conditions and little force on force because it it hard to score on a sheet. Realistic, not unless you are getting attacked walking to or from your house or in your car. Wait, can't do that with live fire, of course that would be dangerous and hard to score. Just like getting attacked from behind or after being knocked down.

    Here is a game to play with your favorite competition shooter. Give him an airsoft pistol that exactly matches his carry gun. Give him some headgear. Stand at arms distance from him. Have someone stand behind you with the tennis ball of death. Your shooter is instructed that when he sees the ball drop he is to draw and shoot you. In response to his movement you pimp slap him in the side of the head. See if this breaks his concentration. For us it has resulted in dropped airsofts and people getting knocked down. And when your competition shooter says how unfair the drill is you ask him to consider being knocked to the ground or up against a wall during a real altercation. That and being hit with a round house, the punch that starts most fights.

    I don't care if you come train with me, or one of the of the other enlightened instructors out there. I just ask that you take a long hard look where you are getting the information from that you are using to prepare yourself to protect you and your family. Does it jive with the most likely threats you are likely to encounter?

    If you like to spend you training time playing golf with a gun (what I call many gun games, since many are about the score and not preparing you for a real altercation) I am cool with that but don't try to pass it off as well rounded training.- George

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    In my opinion gun games are prob one of the best ways to learn gun handleing, fast target aquisition, ect....

    but thats it. People who seem to think gaming well will teach you any more than that are awfully misled.

    and (this will stir the pot) some of the habits we learn by repitition in games are horrid in real life. Watch how many gamers stop at the end of a stage, come to a ready position, and scan the area.........

    or when IDPA shooters (who seem more convinced than most that this game is somehow prepatory for a violent attack) run right up to "cover" and lean around corners.............

    USPSA shooters who stand in doorways and engage multiple targets..............

  3. #3
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    Spring Lake, Michigan
    (Lancaster County)
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    Even if you train everyday for the rest of your life. There is still no way to tell how or when TSHTF. Another good point on OC and having constant situational awareness.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Monroeville, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn.L View Post
    In my opinion gun games are prob one of the best ways to learn gun handleing, fast target aquisition, ect....

    but thats it. People who seem to think gaming well will teach you any more than that are awfully misled.

    and (this will stir the pot) some of the habits we learn by repitition in games are horrid in real life. Watch how many gamers stop at the end of a stage, come to a ready position, and scan the area.........

    or when IDPA shooters (who seem more convinced than most that this game is somehow prepatory for a violent attack) run right up to "cover" and lean around corners.............

    USPSA shooters who stand in doorways and engage multiple targets..............

    I beleive most people who do shoot these do it because they enjoy shooting, not because it's going to save their life someday.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    Quote Originally Posted by arjohnson View Post
    I beleive most people who do shoot these do it because they enjoy shooting, not because it's going to save their life someday.
    I belive you are correct, but there are some who think of it as a replacement to SD training.

    I spoke to one gentelman at an IDPA match who on more than one occasion remarked to me that "this is how everone that carries should practice" and about how effective people who are good at it can protect themselves.

    When I remarked to him about how the rules encourage poor use of cover he had a dumbfounded look on his face, and no response.

    so..... some people deff feel this way. and others who may not are unaware of the bad habits they are practiceing again and again every time they play.

    its just something to be aware of, and if you know its there you can still play and not fall victim to the behavior the rules encourage.

    This one IDPA match I shot I was on a stage that had a lot of moving and shooting from cover/corners. I will not run right up to a corner and reach around it, so my shots are farther away and my times are slower. One RO tried to "give me some pointers" about how to run up to corners and just reach around with my upper torso. Another RO stopped him with a "NO NO, This ones doing it right !".

    tactical principles include:
    distance is your friend
    stay away from corners
    never pass anything you have not cleared and controlled

  6. #6
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    GBURG, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    At a recent shoot we had at acsha, we had a military guy (I forget what branch) show up with his 1911. He said that he had never done an "Action Pistol Match" before. In the shoot house, he stormed the first room and took out the target. Then he went into a dead sprint down the hall towards the exit, he never even tried to find his "wife" which was the point of the stage. It was kind of funny. We pulled him back and he went room by room clearing EVERYTHING, hostile or not.
    Adams County Sport Handgunners Association - President

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    You guys are absolutely right. I don't think if someone attacks me out of the blue I'm going to be able to draw and fire before getting knocked down or beat up or worse. I love shooting IDPA, it's a game and it's fun. It has taught me a great deal about shooting and gun handling. It also gives you an opportunity to do some things you aren't allowed to do on the range such as shooting on the move and in and around cover, shooting moving targets. So in that respect it really does help you to be better prepared for drawing and shooting and possibly saving your life. The only thing is you would have to see it coming a mile away and be totally ready otherwise you would be looking up at someone thinking what happened. True self defense training requires realistic real life scenarios not a course they walk you through and tell you exactly how to shoot with no opposition. Without proper training I think most people, me included would never get a chance to use their gun. While not perfect gun games make you a better shot, give you a chance to shoot under pressure, quicken draw and response times and train you to shoot multiple targets quickly and accurately all good training.
    "Take the guns first, then worry about due process" Trump

  8. #8
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    stroudsburg, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    Games are games. I like to shoot idpa and think it is a good venue to learn how to handle your firearm and clear malfuntions. When you walk through a stage you should look for cover points and reference points on props to help you find the next target. This is how you cut time out of your score. It is in no way a substitute for training. I shoot stages to win not to train myself what to do when something bad goes down and in real life it's more than cardboard around that plywood wall. At this point I feel like the opperation of my gun is an automatic process in my mind thanks to the amount of structured trigger time idpa has given me.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    I have yet to see any matches that provide cover, only concealment. Knowing the difference is key.

    As far as OC, you show me an open gut and I will show you a gun I or anyone trained by me can take about five different ways. Not bragging just the truth. If you tell me that you OC because you support the Second Amendment I say OK. If you tell me you OC because it makes tactical sense I say BS and will show you why on more than one level.

    I have gotten very good at taken guns away from retention holsters so everything else is a breeze. The majority of police that are killed in the line of duty are killed while working uniform, so if the gun in plain sight did not stop the bad guy from taking them on why would it stop them from doing the same to you?

    Putting my Nomex on now, let the flames begin

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Where are you getting your firearms training information from?

    yeah, I have heard a lot of:
    "the world is dangerous and random enough for me to want to carry a gun, but....... not dangerous enough for me to give serious consideration to the idea of needing to retain that gun in a violent encounter"


    I love OC, and the OC movement in general, but many dont have a realistic view of it.

    then again most gun owners have no training at all, and posts about people carrying a gun they havent even shot yet abound.

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