Single Action/Double Action/De-cocking etc.? Please explain.....

[XDm40]

I hope these are not redundant questions.

I have a SA XDM40 and a Ruger LCP .380. Neither has a hammer or decocking lever. Few questions.

With a round in the chamber, there is visual indication on both pistols that the gun is cocked, on the XDM it's a small pin that protrudes from the back, on the LCP, its what appears to be a small hammer that is visual but not accessable in a slot cut in the rear of the slide. On the XDM, there is also visual indication that there is a load in the chamber via a small ramp that protrudes upward in front of the ejection port.

1) When cocked is the trigger pull considered single action or double action for the first shot on these pistols?
2) Are subsequent trigger pulls from the same magazine load considered single action of double action?
3) With a round in the chamber, and since there is no de-cocking lever, what are the chances of accidental discharge if dropped vs. a pistol with a hammer, one in the chamber, and de-cocked?

Thanks in advance.

[dunsho]

On the LCP, on the ejection port, you can actually look into it (i'll verify this when i get home). if a shell is there then it's has 1 in the chamber.

the LCP is a double action only. you can't precock it.


Pretty sure both guns are drop safe. (LCP post recall)

[Steve_NEPhila]

I hope these are not redundant questions.

I have a SA XDM40 and a Ruger LCP .380. Neither has a hammer or decocking lever. Few questions.

With a round in the chamber, there is visual indication on both pistols that the gun is cocked, on the XDM it's a small pin that protrudes from the back, on the LCP, its what appears to be a small hammer that is visual but not accessable in a slot cut in the rear of the slide. On the XDM, there is also visual indication that there is a load in the chamber via a small ramp that protrudes upward in front of the ejection port.

1) When cocked is the trigger pull considered single action or double action for the first shot on these pistols?
2) Are subsequent trigger pulls from the same magazine load considered single action of double action?
3) With a round in the chamber, and since there is no de-cocking lever, what are the chances of accidental discharge if dropped vs. a pistol with a hammer, one in the chamber, and de-cocked?

Thanks in advance.

Good questions, I can help.
1. Both of these pistols have the same trigger pull each time you squeeze it. I would call them DAO but that might be a misnomer for the XD. You could call it striker fired safe action, but the Glock boys may complain. Basically it defies categorization in the XD,

2.Same answer as above. Each additional squeeze of the trigger will be about the same effort, see above.

3. Both the XD and the LCP have a "drop safety" that prevent a discharge from trauma. Basically, if you keep your booger picker off the bang switch you are good. Most modern pistols have safety mechanisms built in to prevent a discharge from being dropped. The only one that comes to mind that would be dangerous to carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer down is the venerable 1911... NEVER carry it this way. The safest way to carry a 191 is cocked and locked.

I hope this is of some help.

[ChamberedRound]

Much of the he SA, DA, DA/SA, DAO nomenclature was originally defined to describe the relationship between the trigger pull and a hammer's behavior. However, such nomenclature has also been adapted to define semiauto pistol actions with strikers as well.

The Ruger LCP is a pistol with a bobbed hammer; it's called bobbed because it doesn't have a spur on it to allow thumb-cocking, it sits flush with the frame at rest. In addition, the trigger pull does 2 things: draws back and releases the hammer. Any design where the hammer is under no tension and tension is applied AND released within the action of a single trigger pull is classic Double Action. This is also sometimes called DAO (Double Action Only) to differentiate it from a weapon which can also be manually cocked and fired (a DA/SA or SA pistol).

The XDM is a slightly different beast, as it's a striker fired pistol. Such pistols are not typically considered Single Action (SA), as with most Single Action designs, all that the trigger pull typically does is release an already charged hammer. Although a striker is charged prior to the trigger pull (by the slide action which takes place when loading and during firing, the process only partially charges the striker. Pulling the trigger releases internal safeties, completes the striker charging, and at the end of the pull releases the striker. Because of this, these pistols are also typically categorized as DAO.

With both of these pistols, subsequent trigger pulls are considered double action, which is why they are both DAO pistols.

As far as drop discharging, how possible this is depends on the gun in question. Early LCPs were recalled due to drop-firing, and are retrofitted with a new hammer to address this issue. I'm not sure if the LCP has any internal safety; my guess is they don't have one, and I'm not sure if the recall/retrofit adds one. The XDM has a internal striker safety, as well as a 1911-style grip safety and optional thumb safety as well. I've never heard of an XDM drop-firing, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Hope all this helps.

[XDm40]

Much of the he SA, DA, DA/SA, DAO nomenclature was originally defined to describe the relationship between the trigger pull and a hammer's behavior. However, such nomenclature has also been adapted to define semiauto pistol actions with strikers as well.

The Ruger LCP is a pistol with a bobbed hammer; it's called bobbed because it doesn't have a spur on it to allow thumb-cocking, it sits flush with the frame at rest. In addition, the trigger pull does 2 things: draws back and releases the hammer. Any design where the hammer is under no tension and tension is applied AND released within the action of a single trigger pull is classic Double Action. This is also sometimes called DAO (Double Action Only) to differentiate it from a weapon which can also be manually cocked and fired (a DA/SA or SA pistol).

The XDM is a slightly different beast, as it's a striker fired pistol. Such pistols are not typically considered Single Action (SA), as with most Single Action designs, all that the trigger pull typically does is release an already charged hammer. Although a striker is charged prior to the trigger pull (by the slide action which takes place when loading and during firing, the process only partially charges the striker. Pulling the trigger releases internal safeties, completes the striker charging, and at the end of the pull releases the striker. Because of this, these pistols are also typically categorized as DAO.

With both of these pistols, subsequent trigger pulls are considered double action, which is why they are both DAO pistols.

As far as drop discharging, how possible this is depends on the gun in question. Early LCPs were recalled due to drop-firing, and are retrofitted with a new hammer to address this issue. I'm not sure if the LCP has any internal safety; my guess is they don't have one, and I'm not sure if the recall/retrofit adds one. The XDM has a internal striker safety, as well as a 1911-style grip safety and optional thumb safety as well. I've never heard of an XDM drop-firing, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Hope all this helps.

Yes this helps on the XDM. The LCP does something a little different than you described, or perhaps I am misreading your explanation. The LCP bobbed hammer is visible when cocked, wether there is a round in the chamber or not. As I pull the trigger, I do see the hammer move backwards before releasing. If there is no round in the chamber and the pistol is dry fired, the bobbed hammer is no longer visible until the pistol is cocked again.

This sounds to me like the hammer has a fully forward (uncocked) and a partially forward (cocked) configuration. Since there is no way to get the hammer fully forward with a round in the chamber, I'll have to carry it in the partially forward (cocked) position. I would have to assume that because the hammer has to travel further back during trigger pull, the hammer would not have enough energy to fire in the partially forward position if the drop safety failed?

[offshorebear]

The LCP hammer rests at a half cock position. It's just enough to keep the hammer off the firing pin. You do not want to carry a gun with the hammer down on a loaded round.

[ChamberedRound]

I would have to assume that because the hammer has to travel further back during trigger pull, the hammer would not have enough energy to fire in the partially forward position if the drop safety failed?

This is the assumption, although it seems that this assumption wasn't initially valid, otherwise there wouldn't have been a need for a recall. And again, whether or not that concern has been addressed with the refit, I can't say.

The LCP hammer rests at a half cock position. It's just enough to keep the hammer off the firing pin. You do not want to carry a gun with the hammer down on a loaded round.

Agreed, and thanks for the clarification.

[Steve_NEPhila]

It is not really half cocked, it is a trigger rebound position. This is similar to smith and wesson revolvers or Sig Autos with the traditional DA/SA. The rebound prevents the hammer from sitting on the firing pin. Half-cocked is more accurately identified with single action revolvers and single action autos like the 1911.

The safest way to carry the LCP is load it as you normally would. Chamber the round, keep your finger off the trigger and rock it out. The "safety" is the trigger. Same for the XD, chamber a round and holster it and you are carrying it in a safe fashion.

[WhiteWolf]

I have an easy way to tell if my wife's LCP is loaded... if the slide is not back or the gun disassembled, it's loaded and ready.

Nothing more useless or dangerous than an unloaded firearm

[levib]

I have an easy way to tell if my wife's LCP is loaded... if the slide is not back or the gun disassembled, it's loaded and ready.

Nothing more useless or dangerous than an unloaded firearm

Yea, first thing I do after cleaning my LCP is chamber a round and put it back in its holster. Back up guns need to be ready to go bang bang.