Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    Quote Originally Posted by Tootie View Post
    How about looking at it like this. She buys a car and lets someone drive it that has a revoked license for dui's. He gets snockered and runs someone over killing them, she is now also responsible for the death of the person he ran over. Why? She knowingly handed the keys over to a person that was barred from driving. So in my eyes she is just as guilty because she knowingly handed over a firearm to a barred person.

    I presume when you use the word responsible, you mean morally speaking. Fair enough. How about if she served liquor to someone, and that person was involved in some type of incident that results in death later that evening? She was either a liquor clerk, a bartender, waitress, or party host in this example. Certainly it hasn't really occurred to her that death may occur tonight. Lets say that the person being served or at the party is rendered incapable of safe driving (intoxicated) by drinking this liquor. As a consequence of being incapable of safe driving the intoxicated driver runs a a stop sign, and someone is killed. For the purposes of this conversation being incapable of safe driving, and intoxicated are not the same as being above a certain blood alcohol level such as .08%, they mean actually intoxicated in the real world, not just in a court room. Is the person who served or hosted the party with the alcohol morally responsible for the death?
    Last edited by Mosinshooter762; October 16th, 2009 at 04:49 PM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    I'm confused, it sounds like she was a NJ resident but the pistol was purchased in PA. How is this possible? I thought you need to show a PA license or have it shipped to a FFL in your state.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    She clearly violated the law by knowingly doing a straw purchase for someone who was temporarily a prohibited person.

    However, morally, I'm less comfortable with this. If he had been prohibited for past violent crimes, and she armed him anyway, then she'd be "more" guilty. But the government hands out PFA's like candy, "just in case". Judges don't want to be the person who refused to "protect" a woman by signing the order, so they err on the side of stripping (mostly male) citizens of their fundamental rights to protect themselves.

    It's not much different than automatically losing your gun rights if you get a divorce. I can't really assume that anyone with a PFA against him is untrustworthy or violent.

    This woman clearly didn't think that this guy was a threat, or she wouldn't have been dating him. It turns out that she was wrong, and in this instance there's strong evidence that he was an untrustworthy badass who really shouldn't have had a gun, or a car; but the reputation of PFA's isn't very good, despite the premise in the media that any Republican who had one is somehow suspect.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosinshooter762 View Post
    I presume when you use the word responsible, you mean morally speaking. Fair enough. How about if she served liquor to someone, and that person was involved in some type of incident that results in death later that evening? She was either a liquor clerk, a bartender, waitress, or party host in this example. Certainly it hasn't really occurred to her that death may occur tonight. Lets say that the person being served or at the party is rendered incapable of safe driving (intoxicated) by drinking this liquor. As a consequence of being incapable of safe driving the intoxicated driver runs a a stop sign, and someone is killed. For the purposes of this conversation being incapable of safe driving, and intoxicated are not the same as being above a certain blood alcohol level such as .08%, they mean actually intoxicated in the real world, not just in a court room. Is the person who served or hosted the party with the alcohol morally responsible for the death?
    Um no, I'm not speaking morally, I'm speaking in terms of legality. As the owner of a vehicle you are responsible (legally) for it at all times no matter who is behind the wheel. Ex: when I ran over that guy, even thought I was 18 I was driving my mothers car. She was also sued for 1 million $ because her name was on the title. There's nothing moral about it, it's what the law is.

    Now in this case, she bought the firearm, she handed it over to someone that was barred from owning/possessing/handling it (pfa or no pfa) . She broke the law right there and then. Now do to her breaking the law he used this firearm to murder an officer, she is now an accomplice. She is now just as guilty as he is, period. No analogy is going to get her off, she's up shits creek.

    Oh and the liquor example you gave. If someone serves a person who is blatantly intoxicated and that person crashes/kills someone, yes they can be held responsible. It has been done in the past and I'm sure there will be cases in the future. Ever read the stories of the mom or dad that got sued for allowing underage drinking in their house and from such 1 kid had an accident and died. They where responsible (legally) for serving the alcohol that the minor drank. See here's the thing, stupid is not an excuse of innocence.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    Quote Originally Posted by ByAnyMeans View Post
    I'm confused, it sounds like she was a NJ resident but the pistol was purchased in PA. How is this possible? I thought you need to show a PA license or have it shipped to a FFL in your state.

    I'm wondering the same thing. The thing I'm thinking is that at the time she may have been living with him and had a PA address/driver's license at that time, but since the incident has moved to NJ ? I dunno.

    Plinker
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    Pray for our troops....and a little extra for our snipers.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    Quote Originally Posted by Plinker View Post
    I'm wondering the same thing. The thing I'm thinking is that at the time she may have been living with him and had a PA address/driver's license at that time, but since the incident has moved to NJ ? I dunno.

    Plinker


    Maybe, cause I can't think of another way without the dealer also having broken laws with the sale.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    "Oh and the liquor example you gave. If someone serves a person who is blatantly intoxicated and that person crashes/kills someone, yes they can be held responsible. It has been done in the past and I'm sure there will be cases in the future."


    Correct, and this especially applys to bartenders!

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    "Oh and the liquor example you gave. If someone serves a person who is blatantly intoxicated and that person crashes/kills someone, yes they can be held responsible. It has been done in the past and I'm sure there will be cases in the future."


    Correct, and this especially applys to bartenders!

    Absolutely, I was a bouncer at a bunch of places and every bartender used to get real nervous and would actually throw me some of their tips to make sure the person was put in a cab. When I was bouncing up at college it was nice because they had a free "saferider" cab that was easy to get people into. It was harder when working in Queens.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBi11 View Post
    Isn't that how it typically happens?
    Pretty much. That's the kind of straw purchasing that "one handgun a month" wouldn't stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by pstew View Post
    I see this as an example of an existing gun law being that is needed and should be enforced. She might have thought twice about making the straw purchase if these laws were enforced more.
    The law is being enforced. She's being charged with her crime.

    What else could have been done? I don't really see any way to have prevented this.
    "There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order."

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Woman who supplied gun that killed trooper charged

    Quote Originally Posted by eXceLon View Post
    Pretty much. That's the kind of straw purchasing that "one handgun a month" wouldn't stop.



    The law is being enforced. She's being charged with her crime.

    What else could have been done? I don't really see any way to have prevented this.
    I think you're right. You can continue pass restrictions and laws to "prohibit" bad behavior, but those who want to do wrong, will. It only leaves in its wake an ever growing nuisance and financial burden on those who are acting responsibly.

    This always end up the same - the majority paying the penalty for the actions of a small minority because the government is either unwilling or unable to prosecute those at the core of the problem.
    I am ashamed of those who represent me.

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