Legal classification of a pistol with 16"+ barrel?

[mythaeus]

I'm not getting very good answers from all the readings I've done. If I slap a 16" upper onto my AR pistol lower, the overall length exceeds 26".

According to UFA
Firearm: "Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or ant pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable."

Does this mean that it's NOT a firearm is not covered by LTCF? I saw affirmed statements that the Fed treats it as a pistol, but I can't find references to that (is it one of those if it's not in the law book, you're good to go?).

I'd appreciate clarifications with applicable references. Thanks.

Al

[Pete D.]

If I slap a 16" upper onto my AR pistol lower, the overall length exceeds 26".

According to UFA
Firearm: "Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or ant pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable."

So..you want to know if the barrel/lower combo is legal. Yes, it is. As long as the overall length is 26" or more, it's legal. What you have done is convert your pistol into a rifle (by definition). Since you have a AR pistol and we assume it is legal, you can make it longer by adding a longer barrel. What you cannot do is put a barrel of less than 16" on the receiver and then add a shoulder stock to it. That combo would then be a short barrelled rifle and would require a special license from the BATFE.
Also...is that quote accurate? I ask because, IIRC, the minimum legal length for a shotgun barrel is 18".
Pete

[mythaeus]

So..you want to know if the barrel/lower combo is legal. Yes, it is. As long as the overall length is 26" or more, it's legal. What you have done is convert your pistol into a rifle (by definition). Since you have a AR pistol and we assume it is legal, you can make it longer by adding a longer barrel. What you cannot do is put a barrel of less than 16" on the receiver and then add a shoulder stock to it. That combo would then be a short barrelled rifle and would require a special license from the BATFE.
Also...is that quote accurate? I ask because, IIRC, the minimum legal length for a shotgun barrel is 18".
Pete

I understand the SBR part.

I don't see how this combo is a "rifle" by definition though. A rifle must have a stock on it for firing from the shoulders correct? Having an OAL of 26" or more without a stock doesn't legally make it a rifle; otherwise, once I slap a 16" upper on my pistol lower, I cannot go back to a pistol later.

Al
PS: The quote came from here: http://www.acslpa.org/pa_uniform_firearms_act.htm

[knight0334]

A handgun is still a handgun no matter the barrel length so long as you never put a shoulder stock on it under federal law.

However under the UFA, when a handgun barrel length exceeds 15" it is no longer a "firearm". You can still carry it concealed or openly, Philly requiring a LTCF though, elsewhere in the state wouldn't require a LTCF. BUT- you can NOT carry it loaded in a vehicle and any loaded magazines would have to be in a separate container.

[Pete D.]

I don't see how this combo is a "rifle" by definition though. A rifle must have a stock on it for firing from the shoulders correct? Having an OAL of 26" or more without a stock doesn't legally make it a rifle; otherwise, once I slap a 16" upper on my pistol lower, I cannot go back to a pistol later.

I apologize for my lack of clarity. I did not mean that you'd have changed the pistol "legally" into a rifle.
That receiver is registered as a pistol - it's a pistol no matter what length barrel is on it. The point is that adding a longer barrel is legal - the Thompson Center people sorted that out with the Federal Courts and the BATFE some time ago.
What I meant was simply that you'd have, essentially, a pistol gripped rifle. If I took my AR15 rifle and put a 16" upper on it in place of the 20" that is on it now, and if I took the stock off and shortened everything up but kept the length at 26", I'd still have a legal rifle. If I put a 14" upper on it, I am in violation of the law.
Your pistol receiver is legal with that same 14" upper. What you cannot do is add a shoulder stock to it. If , however, you add a 16" upper and a shoulder stock, you are OK.

[mythaeus]

A handgun is still a handgun no matter the barrel length so long as you never put a shoulder stock on it under federal law.

That's my read from various threads and forums, but I am not able to find the exact federal law on this. Any source?

However under the UFA, when a handgun barrel length exceeds 15" it is no longer a "firearm". You can still carry it concealed or openly, Philly requiring a LTCF though, elsewhere in the state wouldn't require a LTCF. BUT- you can NOT carry it loaded in a vehicle and any loaded magazines would have to be in a separate container.

Yup, this pertains to § 6106.1 given that the combo is not a firearm per UFA.

Thanks,
Al

[mythaeus]

I apologize for my lack of clarity. I did not mean that you'd have changed the pistol "legally" into a rifle.
That receiver is registered as a pistol - it's a pistol no matter what length barrel is on it. The point is that adding a longer barrel is legal - the Thompson Center people sorted that out with the Federal Courts and the BATFE some time ago.
What I meant was simply that you'd have, essentially, a pistol gripped rifle. If I took my AR15 rifle and put a 16" upper on it in place of the 20" that is on it now, and if I took the stock off and shortened everything up but kept the length at 26", I'd still have a legal rifle. If I put a 14" upper on it, I am in violation of the law.
Your pistol receiver is legal with that same 14" upper. What you cannot do is add a shoulder stock to it. If , however, you add a 16" upper and a shoulder stock, you are OK.

I believe the the Thompson Contender conversion from pistol back to rifle ruling is only specific to the TC, not any other gun/make. In the case you describe, it's going from rifle to "rifle" (still questionable to me since there is no stock even if OAL is 26"). In my case, it's a pistol to begin with so calling it a "rifle" result in legal consequences.

Al

[knight0334]

That's my read from various threads and forums, but I am not able to find the exact federal law on this. Any source?



Yup, this pertains to § 6106.1 given that the combo is not a firearm per UFA.

Thanks,
Al

There is no barrel or overall size requirements or restrictions, just that it has a "stock" used by one hand.

Title 18, Chapter 44, Subsection 921 Definitions

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...1----000-.html

(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

[Pete D.]

The T/C case is United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992).

I believe the the Thompson Contender conversion from pistol back to rifle ruling is only specific to the TC, not any other gun/make.

That's an interesting point. I've always understood it in a broader context but you may be right. I do not know. I'd been applying what I understand about pistol gripped shotguns - keep the barrel and overall legal and you can have a pistol grip or a shoulder stock. Would it be different for a rifle?
Pete

[knight0334]

You can put any length of barrel on a handgun and it remains a handgun. The moment you attach a shoulder stock it becomes a rifle for eternity, except TC's. If the newly made rifle has a barrel less than 16" or an overall length less than 26" it is a SBR, if it has a barrel 16"+ and an overall 26"+ it is a standard rifle.

If you have a AR15 pistol receiver and you want to attach your 16" barrel, or longer barrel, it is still a handgun by federal law. It is no longer a "firearm" though under PA law.

Its that simple..