Pre ban meaning

[MaxXam]

I live in New York State and you are could be in serious trouble if you have a post ban pistol or rifle with a high cap magazine. There are those who believe that if Obama gets a secoind term, he would reimpose the 1994 Clinton ban with 94 as the priority date for determining confiscatable firearms. But that sounds paranoid....... The preban AR is considered a "safer" investment not unlike preconfiscation gold coins.

[MOUNTAINORACLE]

I see alot of firearms that are advertised as "pre ban". Im relatively new to firearms so what is the big deal with these firearms if the ban is over? (Im assuming the assault weapon ban, correct?) Thank You.

IMHO

Being an old fart I consider pre-ban as anything manufactured & imported to the USA gun market prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968 that was signed in Oct of 1968 by President Lyndon B. Johnson

The 1968 Act prohibited and included a wide variety of disqualified classes. It barred licensees from the knowing transfer of a gun or ammunition to:
(1) Minors (under eighteen for shotguns and rifles; under twenty-one for handguns).
(2) Persons convicted of a state or federal felony, as well as the fugitives and defendants under indictment covered by the F.F.A.
(3) Adjudicated mental defectives and any person who had been committed to a mental institution.
(4) Persons who are* unlawful users of or "addicted to marijuana or any depressant or stimulant drug . . . or narcotic drug."

This law used the "sporting purposes" test and a points system to exclude many small, inexpensive imported firearms (Saturday Night Specials). It also banned quality pocket pistols like the Browning 1910 and the Walther PPK that police officers were using a BUGs, since police work was not considered "sporting purposes" and they failed the points system on the basis of size.

Ending the importation of all surplus military firearms and all other guns unless certified by the Secretary of the Treasury as "particularly suitable for ... sporting purposes."

oracle

[cigarmanpa]

I live in New York State and you are could be in serious trouble if you have a post ban pistol or rifle with a high cap magazine. There are those who believe that if Obama gets a secoind term, he would reimpose the 1994 Clinton ban with 94 as the priority date for determining confiscatable firearms. But that sounds paranoid....... The preban AR is considered a "safer" investment not unlike preconfiscation gold coins.

it feels like there is a legal flaw in this logic

[ungawa]

Its to stab the bastard after you run out of ammo but before you beat him over the head with the butt stock after the bayonet breaks in his spine. Of course all this is before you speak harshly to the bastard. Duh!

There also good for keeping back dogs and other animals when you are not sure you want to shoot.

[JayBell]

there's enormous gaping legal holes and "I thinks" posted in this thread asa whole.

you have to specify What ban. Since we are not talking about NFA, or what Oracle talked about, we'll skip the whole GCA of 68 thing that was thrown in here, and causes nothing but confusion in the current nomenclature of the term "pre-ban"

Various bans have been instituted over the years, for importation, manufacture, and posession...

the first ban was importation... signed by Bush #1.
this entailed the ban on importation of "semiauto versions of automatic military firearms that can accept a high capacity magazine" if they had ANY of the following features:
pistolgrip
flashhider/threaded muzzle
folding or telescoping stock
bayonet lug
grenade launcher
night sights

so, basically, all the HK91s and clones, Uzis, galils, and the rest of the IMPORTED highcap rifles were banned form import.

they modified the guns to thumbhole stocks, removed the rest of the bad features, and resumed importation.
however, it wasn't illegal to put the features back ON the gun.

so in 11/90, Congress enacted the 922(r) provision on "making a rifle or shotgun from all imported parts in a configuration thats banned from importation"...this making ban affects rifles and shotguns.
this resulted in a parts count loophole being found later

at this point, restoring features without US parts was a misdemeanor, and possession was not illegal...but the gun would be considered contraband.

on Sept 13th 1994, the more famous AW ban was enacted, with a really long bullshit name like "law enforcement protection and blah blah blah act of 1994"

this applied now to domestic, AND imported guns, and basically banned a lot of guns by NAME, and by feature (example the TEC9 was banned by name, they removed offending features, and released it as the AB9)

aside from the named guns, they went after rifles, shotguns, AND pistols, and made it a felony to manufacture OR possess any weapon made after Sept 13th 1994 if it had morethan ONE of the following features:

Rifles(IF it had a detachable magazine):
pistolgrip
flash hider/threaded muzzle
folding or telescoping stock
bayonet lug
grenade launcher

semiauto pistols:
magazine that attaches outside the pistolgrip
threaded muzzle
manufactured weight of 50oz or more
barrel shroud that fully or partially encloses the barrel to prevent the shooter from being burned
semi version of an automatic firearm

semiauto shotguns:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazine

MAGAZINES DID have a part in the 94 ban. the ban made it illegal to possess any magazine manufactered after Sept 13th 1994, if it held over 10rds of ammunition.
Magazines over 10rds had to be date stamped, and or include a marking such as "restricted for law enforcement or military use only"


frankly, we can thank Bob Dole for insisting that the sunset clause be included.
this Ban expired at midnight, Sept13th 2004 after 10 years of uselessness.

in 1997 Clinton directed the ATF to re-examine the importability of thumbhole stocked semiautos under the sporting clause. this resulted in the ATF banning importation of thumbhole stocked guns like the MISR AK, the MAK-90, and things like the SAR-8.

manufacturers then just brought them in with US parts on them(922r regs), like the first SAR-1s and such, til now.

Various states have their own bans.. NY mirrored the federal ban of 1994, but with no expiration date
California has a severe ban that is nuts to even try and relate.
NJ and Massachusetts have thier own restrictions as well.

so, "pre-ban" can mean many things, and verified "pre-ban" magazines and firearms can bring a premium if sold to residents of a state that allows prebans, but not post bans

as per a NEW ban... its unlikely they will redo using the same criteria, as a metric asston of post 1994 guns have been made with "bad" features, not to mention all the "during ban" made guns that have since been modified legally.

they'd have to ban them ALL, or make a new ban like the old by "date of enactment" and come up with a new scheme for marking mags and guns by date code only... currently, in "no-ban" states its legal to own "restricted" marked magazines and guns.

hope this clears things up...

[PA Rifleman]

I see alot of firearms that are advertised as "pre ban". Im relatively new to firearms so what is the big deal with these firearms if the ban is over? (Im assuming the assault weapon ban, correct?) Thank You.

It's all about cosmetics, which is important mostly to purists (guilty, here....). Functionally, it doesn't make much difference.

It's meaning has been confused over time, and it is strongly dependent on context. It also depends on whether the firearm in question is domestic, or an import.

One germane detail that needs mentioning: Congress controls laws governing domestic manufacture, the President has control over importation without any oversight. So, Congress can't ban importation and the President can't ban domestic manufacture.

The original "pre-ban" term originated around 1990 or so after President Bush (the first) banned the importation of "assault rifles" in 1989. Following this, the subsequent imports had thumbhole stocks and the bayonet lug deleted. Rifles imported prior to 1990, with all the original military cosmetic features were referred to as "pre-ban", rifles imported in 1990 and later were "postban". It didn't take unscrupulous sellers long to figure out that buyers would pay more for a pre-ban, so the term "pre-ban" was slung around like cheap hash in roadside diner.

Again, in 1994 Congress banned domestic *manufacture* of military style semi auto rifles and this time, high capacity magazines. The domestic makers responded by deleting certain cosmetic features like flash hiders and bayonet lugs to make the current production guns cosmetically compliant. So, in the 1994 AWB context, it means a domestic-made rifle produced between September 1994 and Sept 2004.

Since the expiry of the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban, it's lost most of it's meaning except for that pool of initial military imports that came into the US between approximately 1984 and 1989. Domestic makers are free to make military style semi-auto rifles as if nothing happened, so you can ignore the term "pre-ban" when it's used with domestic rifles. In the case of imports, provenance is very important. Imports with enough US-made parts qualify as a domestic rifle, and aren't affected. This is the significance of the 922 inspired parts count. Lacking enough US parts, the focus should be screening out a rifle that was obviously imported after 1989 but has all the banned cosmetic features.

Sounds confusing? It is, and many sellers intentionally insinuate their product is more significant than it really is. So, upon reading a "pre-ban" claim, the first question should be...which ban? The second question should be..."do you (the seller) have an invoice or proof of purchase as evidence?"

In the case of the SKS rifle, the bayonet lugs were ground off after 1990 or so. The first batch had the bayonets unbolted, later rifles had the mounting hardware cut or ground off. This applies mostly to Chinese SKS rifles, since the Russian and most eastern European SKS rifles are covered under the Curio & Relics list, and are exempt if not modified. So, as a general rule, buyers will pay more for an original SKS if it isn't modified, and sellers try to ask more for a modified SKS apparently to recover their investment.

[levib]

Bayonet lug? New guns can't have them, I think.

Who needs a big pointy thing at the end of a boom stick anyway?



Magazine capacity wasn't really a factor except during the ban.

Maybe you just haven't seen one of these. Is a laser-guided knife on the end of your pistol necessary? No(t always). Is a laser-guided knife on the end of your pistol awesome? Nearly as awesome as sharks with frickin laser beams on their head.

[stephpd]

Good write ups JayBell and PA Rifleman. I thought that evil lug was part of those bans, I just couldn't remember all the other obscure things that were also considered evil.

Thanks for a in depth and complete list of what makes newer guns evil and why they were banned. As well as what companies did to circumvent stupid laws.