Private Security powers?

[The Unknown 1087]

So I was at work today, and some of the anti gun people and I had a talk. One actually teachers police officers at the one training academy .

A private properties security, mall, ect. Can legally detain you, for ANYTHING if they figure out you have a weapon on you (of any kind) and its not allowed by their policy. Which I thought was bullshit, they have to ask you to leave first (correct).

Then we got into the debate if they are not LE officers, just security there is NO way I am giving them any of my information. I was informed if I did this, I could get "taken down" and then when they call the police get charged with DC, Resisting and so on. WTF is this?

Then we got into carrying on college campuses when I go visit friends, "if they find out, it doesn't matter if your a student or not, they can legally arrest you, and charge you with trespass, and dc, they DON'T have to ask you to leave first".

What's everyone think?

Can private security do anything besides ask you to leave? If you don't leave, then your screwed.

As for colleges I know, they can't do anything as well besides ask me to leave since I am not staff, or a student. Correct?

[tl_3237]

Firstly, as to loss prevention agents they can detain for theft but I find nowhere where they can detain/arrest otherwise beyond a citizens arrest:

18 Pa.C.S.A. § 3929 Retail theft



(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of a retail theft if he:

(1) takes possession of, carries away, transfers or causes to be carried away or transferred, any merchandise displayed, held, stored or offered for sale by any store or other retail mercantile establishment with the intention of depriving the merchant of the possession, use or benefit of such merchandise without paying the full retail value thereof;

(2) alters, transfers or removes any label, price tag marking, indicia of value or any other markings which aid in determining value affixed to any merchandise displayed, held, stored or offered for sale in a store or other retail mercantile establishment and attempts to purchase such merchandise personally or in consort with another at less than the full retail value with the intention of depriving the merchant of the full retail value of such merchandise;

(3) transfers any merchandise displayed, held, stored or offered for sale by any store or other retail mercantile establishment from the container in or on which the same shall be displayed to any other container with intent to deprive the merchant of all or some part of the full retail value thereof; or

(4) under-rings with the intention of depriving the merchant of the full retail value of the merchandise.

(5) destroys, removes, renders inoperative or deactivates any inventory control tag, security strip or any other mechanism designed or employed to prevent an offense under this section with the intention of depriving the merchant of the possession, use or benefit of such merchandise without paying the full retail value thereof.


(b) Grading.--

(1) Retail theft constitutes a:

(i) Summary offense when the offense is a first offense and the value of the merchandise is less than $150.

(ii) Misdemeanor of the second degree when the offense is a second offense and the value of the merchandise is less than $150.

(iii) Misdemeanor of the first degree when the offense is a first or second offense and the value of the merchandise is $150 or more.

(iv) Felony of the third degree when the offense is a third or subsequent offense, regardless of the value of the merchandise.

(v) Felony of the third degree when the amount involved exceeds $2,000 or if the merchandise involved is a firearm or a motor vehicle.

(1.1) Any person who is convicted under subsection (a) of retail theft of motor fuel may, in addition to any other penalty imposed, be sentenced as follows:

(i) For a first offense, to pay a fine of not less than $100 nor more than $250.

(ii) For a second offense, to pay a fine of not less than $250 nor more than $500.

(iii) For a third or subsequent offense, to pay a fine of not less than $500, or the court may order the operating privilege of the person suspended for 30 days. A copy of the order shall be transmitted to the Department of Transportation.

(2) Amounts involved in retail thefts committed pursuant to one scheme or course of conduct, whether from the same store or retail mercantile establishment or several stores or retail mercantile establishments, may be aggregated in determining the grade of the offense.


(c) Presumptions.--Any person intentionally concealing unpurchased property of any store or other mercantile establishment, either on the premises or outside the premises of such store, shall be prima facie presumed to have so concealed such property with the intention of depriving the merchant of the possession, use or benefit of such merchandise without paying the full retail value thereof within the meaning of subsection (a), and the finding of such unpurchased property concealed, upon the person or among the belongings of such person, shall be prima facie evidence of intentional concealment, and, if such person conceals, or causes to be concealed, such unpurchased property, upon the person or among the belongings of another, such fact shall also be prima facie evidence of intentional concealment on the part of the person so concealing such property.


(c.1) Evidence.--To the extent that there is other competent evidence to substantiate the offense, the conviction shall not be avoided because the prosecution cannot produce the stolen merchandise.


(d) Detention.--A peace officer, merchant or merchant's employee or an agent under contract with a merchant, who has probable cause to believe that retail theft has occurred or is occurring on or about a store or other retail mercantile establishment and who has probable cause to believe that a specific person has committed or is committing the retail theft may detain the suspect in a reasonable manner for a reasonable time on or off the premises for all or any of the following purposes: to require the suspect to identify himself, to verify such identification, to determine whether such suspect has in his possession unpurchased merchandise taken from the mercantile establishment and, if so, to recover such merchandise, to inform a peace officer, or to institute criminal proceedings against the suspect. Such detention shall not impose civil or criminal liability upon the peace officer, merchant, employee, or agent so detaining.

[The Unknown 1087]

Well for retail I understand, but they're talking about them just coming up and not ask you to leave, just detain you until they call the police because you have a holster weapon or whatnot.

[The Unknown 1087]

Your friend is full of something, and it doesn't smell good.

Private security can detain for certain crimes like retail theft and felonies, but can not arrest you. Having a weapon on you changes nothing in regards to thier detaining "authority".

Many security guards including ACT235 are just window dressing to make the sheeple feel good. I worked armed security at South Side Works in Pittsburgh, and our boss there told us to never get involved physically unless it was a matter of life or death, because they were afraid of civil cases.

Thats what I was thinking, and there is no law saying I MUST provide my name to security.

[Swarner793]

I was a Supervisor for a College Security Dept. for nearly five years. I am now in Retail Security/Loss Prevention and have been for 12 years. I own a Private Detective Agency, for over ten years, that provides armed Security Specialists. I tell you all this only to qualify my professional opinion, YOUR FRIEND IS FULL OF SHIT! Sorry, did not mean to yell. I do not know what institution he "teaches" at, but I would suggest to him not to quit his day job. He is teaching people some shaky shit. I would understand if you would rather not give the name of the "academy", but I sure would like to know

Be safe (and know your limitations).

Scott

[The Unknown 1087]

I was a Supervisor for a College Security Dept. for nearly five years. I am now in Retail Security/Loss Prevention and have been for 12 years. I own a Private Detective Agency, for over ten years, that provides armed Security Specialists. I tell you all this only to qualify my professional opinion, YOUR FRIEND IS FULL OF SHIT! Sorry, did not mean to yell. I do not know what institution he "teaches" at, but I would suggest to him not to quit his day job. He is teaching people some shaky shit. I would understand if you would rather not give the name of the "academy", but I sure would like to know

Be safe (and know your limitations).

Scott

Thanks for your reply. I am not actually sure what place he teaches at.

[Helter]

I would become very belligerent if a private security agent attempted to detain me for pretty much anything.
I doubt that I could successfully fight them off (the ones I've seen do takedowns in malls were all pretty good at it), but I'd sure do my best.

[tl_3237]

Been checking out 'citizen's arrest'. From what I can find Pa allows citizen's arrest for felonies and certain 'breach of peace' misdemeanor offenses but NOT summary offenses. The applicability to other misdemeanors is unclear.

Its certainly an interesting topic to explore.

Since defiant trespass is a misdemeanor (third degree) it is unclear if security, lacking any specific governmental empowerment, can arrest for possession of a firearm against rules of entry.

I find it hard to believe, absent statute or case law, that a 'security' person will arrest for trespass. THeir only recourse would be to attempt to obtain your ID under 'mere encounter' rules, clear view ID (ex: vehicle plates) or ID info from a third party (charge card number from merchants, some who can ID you, etc) and then prefer charges. There's always the first test case but I doubt that the 'security' person, their employer or their customer want to become that case. They may tell you to stay and wait for LEO but they can't physically detain you without risking criminal and civil suits.

Just IMO and not to be construed as legal advice.

[Swarner793]

I would become very belligerent if a private security agent attempted to detain me for pretty much anything.

As aforementioned, there is a place in the law for a private agent to detain, with probable cause, in the case of Retail Theft. Not accusing you, in any way of being a thief, just sayin'

Also, a private agent's right to detain gets tricky in regards to Bail Bonds and Bail Enforcement. With that however, there is a Legal Authority requesting the detention/arrest, such as a Common Pleas Judge.

Be safe (and don't steal or skip bail and you should be unmolested).

Scott

[Helter]

As aforementioned, there is a place in the law for a private agent to detain, with probable cause, in the case of Retail Theft. Not accusing you, in any way of being a thief, just sayin'

Also, a private agent's right to detain gets tricky in regards to Bail Bonds and Bail Enforcement. With that however, there is a Legal Authority requesting the detention/arrest, such as a Common Pleas Judge.

Be safe (and don't steal or skip bail and you should be unmolested).

Scott

Fair point, but if I'm stealing or skipping bail, that would seem to increase rather than decrease my incentive to resist.