Fixed blade knives in PA?

[motoman250f]

i know this topic is covered alot in these forums however i still have alot of questions. I want to carry a small fixed blade knife for self defense. I really like the cold steel safe maker II http://www.coldsteel.com/samase.html the only problem is that the laws in PA are so vague i can't figure out what is legal. Would this knife be legal to carry? would it be legal to have it concealed? (i do not have a concealed carry permit) would the police catagorize this as a dagger because it is double edged and therefor an offensive weapon? i realize that my questions are lengthy but i would appreciate any input.

thank you

[Al-Mumit]

Philly cops (mostly) go by the 'blade no bigger than the palm of your hand' rule, although I've been stopped and released with everything from switchblades to machetes on my person before and have never been arrested. It seems not even the police really know what's what with knives...

[smithwessn]

Philly cops (mostly) go by the 'blade no bigger than the palm of your hand' rule, although I've been stopped and released with everything from switchblades to machetes on my person before and have never been arrested. It seems not even the police really know what's what with knives...

Uhh... I'm pretty sure any knife is illegal in Philly. I could be wrong, but I'm 99% sure I'm right.


edit- I'm sure someone will be along shortly with the relevant laws.

[King 5.45]

Uhh... I'm pretty sure any knife is illegal in Philly. I could be wrong, but I'm 99% sure I'm right.


edit- I'm sure someone will be along shortly with the relevant laws.

Philadelphia does have a law on their books that makes anything with an edge illegal unless it's used in a trade:

§ 10-820. Cutting Weapons in Public Places. 189

     (1)     Definition.

          Cutting Weapon. Any knife or other cutting instrument which can be used as a weapon that has a cutting edge similar to that of a knife. No tool or instrument commonly or ordinarily used in a trade, profession or calling shall be considered a cutting weapon while actually being used in the active exercise of that trade, profession or calling.

     (2)     Prohibited Conduct. No person shall use or possess any cutting weapon upon the public streets or upon any public property at any time.

     (3)     Penalty. The penalty for violation of this Section shall be a fine of not less than three hundred (300) dollars and imprisonment of not less than ninety days.

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Pennsylvania/philadelphia_pa/title10regulationofindividualconductanda/chapter10-800safety?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm$3.0#JD_Chapter10-800

[unloved]

I want to carry a small fixed blade knife for self defense.

Concealed or not, under Commonwealth law, knife carry is generally legal. There are no restrictions on fixed blades or blade length.
However, local governments are free to restrict any, or all carry of knives.

the only problem is that the laws in PA are so vague i can't figure out what is legal.

You're right. I think that was intentional. The statute is worded in such a way that almost anything could be considered a prohibited offensive weapon.

Would this knife be legal to carry?

I think so, but police, prosecutors, judges, and jurors, may disagree.

would it be legal to have it concealed?

Double edged blades could be characterized as prohibited offensive weapons. Concealed or not.

(i do not have a concealed carry permit)

A Pennsylvania License To Carry Firearms only covers firearms.

would the police catagorize this as a dagger because it is double edged and therefor an offensive weapon?

They may. See above.

[King 5.45]

Double edged blades are prohibited offensive weapons. Concealed or not.

You need to look at the construction of the law to judge its intent. I'm 110% sure that the law is being misapplied so far as double-edged knives "or other cutting implements" are concerned.

... dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise ...

It encapsulates everything imaginable with a blade that can be exposed in an automatic way. No matter how it is being applied, I'm fairly certain that its intent was to make automatic-opening (gravity, switch, what have you) knives illegal. Unfortunately, parsing sentences isn't always the strong suit of those who enforce the law. If anyone has read an opinion that further amplifies the common understanding of PDWs in PA, I'm all ears.

[Al-Mumit]

Philadelphia does have a law on their books that makes anything with an edge illegal unless it's used in a trade:

§ 10-820. Cutting Weapons in Public Places. 189

     (1)     Definition.

          Cutting Weapon. Any knife or other cutting instrument which can be used as a weapon that has a cutting edge similar to that of a knife. No tool or instrument commonly or ordinarily used in a trade, profession or calling shall be considered a cutting weapon while actually being used in the active exercise of that trade, profession or calling.

     (2)     Prohibited Conduct. No person shall use or possess any cutting weapon upon the public streets or upon any public property at any time.

     (3)     Penalty. The penalty for violation of this Section shall be a fine of not less than three hundred (300) dollars and imprisonment of not less than ninety days.

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Pennsylvania/philadelphia_pa/title10regulationofindividualconductanda/chapter10-800safety?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm$3.0#JD_Chapter10-800

Don't tell the cops in Philly, they seem to not know this... honestly, I've had multiple cops send me on my way with various knives and tell me about the 'palm rule'. I always got away with it saying I thought it was the hand, from middle finger to bottom of palm > Maybe its just an unwritten rule?

[unloved]

Don't tell the cops in Philly, they seem to not know this... honestly, I've had multiple cops send me on my way with various knives and tell me about the 'palm rule'. I always got away with it saying I thought it was the hand, from middle finger to bottom of palm > Maybe its just an unwritten rule?

I've spoken with three Philly cops on this issue. They all told me that they use this ordinance as a 'stack on' charge. They generally don't hassle Joe Citizen walking down the street, but if you have a knife on you while doing something they don't like, they've got something to charge you with.

They're talking out of their asses about the blade length thing though.

Rely on the goodwill of PPD officers at your peril.

[Al-Mumit]

That makes sense... more than it should, unfortunately, but that makes sense. Its like when they pull you over on 95 because they 'thought they smelled marijuana'. Yeah, at 60mph with my windows up you smelled something being smoked... when I'm a nonsmoker?

Rely on the goodwill of PPD officers at your peril.

Let me just fix that there...

Rely on PPD officers at your peril.

There we go, much better.

[m6amba]

i dont do ANYTHING without a knife, i ALWAYS have one in my pocket
i live on a farm, there are way too many times when you have to cut something and you're in the barn, or in a field.
as soon as i wake up my knife goes in my pocket.
depending on where i am, and what im doing, i often have multiples

granted, i never carry fixed blades, so im not sure why i am participating in this discussion.....LOL