Business Owner, carrying and use of force

[T Durdin]

Hi again all,

I have predominately worked in the food service/restaurant industry as a head cook/chef. My buddy and me are going to start our own operation. Our target location is York, Lancaster or Adams. We'll probably end up in York so we don't have to move or commute, unless we find a great location elsewhere; close to or in York city, which has a higher crime rate.

I have not had a LTCF up to this point, but am applying for it. I was never against it or anything, I just never felt the need.

I am a fairly big dude, while wearing a chef jacket or apron I can pack heat without anyone knowing. We plan to empty the register frequently into a drop safe, any BG's would basically have to see me or my partner personally to get more than pocket change.

Are there any business people on here who carry??
While at your place of business?
While making deposits and outside your place of business?
Anybody ever been robbed?

Supposing I have to use some lead persuasion on the BG's, I assume if they're armed and threatening people it's ok to shoot them. The local authorities here seem supportive in cases of use of force to protect one's home or property. I'll probably go to one of the use of deadly force seminars to get all the pertinent facts.

I plan to bullet proof 2 of the doors (if we get the joint I'm thinking of) and install a lots of security cameras. Any other thoughts or suggestions?

I know any advice is just for examples and doesn't replace the advice of a paid attorney, but would point me in the right direction.

[Skuggi]

I pack at work, my boss/sister packs at work. It's a small family owned Gym. We try and keep the money low in the register, but god help the bg coming in waving a gun at us and our customers. We can afford to lose 20 bucks, it's successful but this is our 3rd year in business so probably wont start seeing good money till next year (At which case I'll hopefully be out of school and off making real money in the IT field lol).

[Chevmeister]

There are alot of business men who carry. I do but only for my own protection, i dig holes and fill them back in for a living, noone ever has held me up for a yard of topsoil. Im sure you will find someone who has been robbed, but i notice they usually dont talk about it on the forums. As far as shooting the BG, I highly reccommend you take a class where they teach when you can shoot, then you can blame him for telling you and not me.
Once you get the place going, let us all know, im sure you will have more then a few customers from the forum.

[Skuggi]

no class needed, the laws are all posted online.

[T Durdin]

Basically what I'd like to know is this.....

As the chef I'll be in the back of the house. What happens during a robbery in a restaurant they try to herd the sheep-ple together, get the manager to get them the money, and force the people into the walk-in cooler. They then leave - or execute the hostages depending on the scumbag criminal.

If I spot some BG's coming in for a robbery, maybe pointing the weapons at the staff, are they fair game to shoot?

Next scenario....

Me and my partner get into the car to take the night deposit to the bank. We get up the block and the BG's attempt to jack us up. Assuming we're on a public street this could make returning fire difficult.

*************************************
I definitely ain't gonna take anything anyone recommends to a hypothetical situation as advice. Especially over the net. Just want to throw these out there and BS about the possibilities. I'll definitely be consulting an attorney when we form our LLC, so I'll get someone who's firm also covers criminal law. And I'll also be sure to check out a use of deadly force class or seminar.

[Skuggi]

Too tired to cite the UFA, but the cliff notes version is this.

You are able to use lethal force if You or the person you are defending you feel has an imminent threat to their life or big time injury.

I recently did a book load of research on this.

Tired didnt even see the second part.

Depends on the situation really. is the car running, are you able to speed off down the street? If there is a safe path of retreat you should take it.

[knight0334]

To add to Skuggi's post:

You have no duty to flee your place of work, just like your home. ...unless the aggressor also works there.

[djturnz]

Just remember you need to have "reasonable belief that you are about to be seriously injured, killed, kidnapped or raped" This belief can also extend to a person in yur presence (staff, customers). The threat needs to be immediate. If a guy says "I'm going to go to your house and shoot your wife" you can't kill him on the spot unless he threatens you, and has some means to do it. You also can't shoot a guy with a knife that threatens you from the other side of a 6 foot fence. He doesn't have the means to carry out the threat at that time.

If a BG pulls a gun, that is threat enough for me. I have no reason to believe that he will not harm anyone if he gets the money.

Beware of your target and what is beyond it, and fire at will.

And you tell the police that you "shot to stop the threat" not "I shot to kill him".

Just my opinions based on research I have done.

[dmg1969]

I am not a business owner, but I carry at work. I work for a law firm and, although we don't do criminal law (only personal injury), you never know what can happen. A pissed off defendant or even client can can in and look to do something.

I am not a lawyer...I do their IT and other systems. I dress in dress pants and shirt and tie, so I don't really have the means to conceal. Therefore, I keep my 9mm in my briefcase right beside my desk.

I never bothered to bring it to the office before until one day a guy came in during warmer weather wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood up and was asking the receptionist weird questions. He also kept sticking his hand in his pockets and acting very strange. The person at the front desk was very scared of what he might have done and stepped away to call me up. By that time, he had left. After that experience, I started bringing it to the office every day.

[Emptymag]

T Durdin,

While there's no "playbook" saying "if this happens - do this", it pretty much boils down to whether a life is in danger when it comes to the use of deadly force. You can attempt to break it down into little what-ifs and legalities, but when the time comes, and we all hope it never does, I think you'll know what to do.

I think you're on the right track with the security cameras and the doors.
Do what you can to lay things out so the building/counter/equipment works FOR you and AGAINST a potential threat.
Ex. A counter that's a bit higher than normal would make it more difficult for an intruder to jump, giving you time to react/escape.
Should you be forced to protect yourself and things get "sticky", (you know, they gotta try and punish the guy defending himself!)it may work to your advantage in court, to show that you took measures to protect your employees beyond simply "having a gun behind the counter".

What was your thinking behind the "bulletproof" doors? Is that to protect you from someone shooting into the establishment or to stop any rounds from exiting the building in the event you had to fire toward an assailant coming at you, gun drawn? It's hard to picture without knowing the layout and construction of the building.

Good luck with your business venture!