We need an organization like the ACLU !!!

[bubba23]

IMHO, we have missed the boat when it comes to protecting our Right to Keep and Bear Arms. While we are singing to the choir about our protection under the Second Amendment, the other side is playing the game with more activism, better organization, and knowing the real war will be won with small victories.

Charlton Heston can make a powerful speech, and I'm happy to own my guns and carry my concealed weapon, but in the end, the government knows about every gun I own, and I still have to unload and lock my handgun in the trunk when I drive through Maryland. Hmm, I didn't know the Second Amendment had footnotes.

The Second Amendment is so mired in federal, state, and local laws, and myriad arbitrary interpretations, that a 16 year old needs to have a lawyer to determine his right to transport a single shot 12 gauge to a trap shoot, AND he may still find himself at the mercy of some LEO that doesn't realize that a full-choke shotgun with 34" barrel is a less effective weapon than the baseball bat lying beside it.

Perhaps you have joined the NRA, GOA, and any other group dedicated to RKBA. Perhaps you have the bumper sticker, and are capable of intelligent debate with anyone who is willing. Perhaps you have contacted all of your representatives so know about your feelings regarding RKBA. So, tell me, how is that working out for you?

Isn't it about time we admit that this isn't working quite the way we had hoped, AND CERTAINLY NOT the way the founders envisioned.

We need an organization like the ACLU !!!

While I am not a member of the ACLU, nor do I agree with many of their positions, but I am very familiar with their organizational structure and feel that gun owners and 2A proponents would be wise to have an organization that emulates their structure. Allow me to explain.

The ACLU Structure
The ACLU is a national organization with a vast network of State and local chapters. For example, the ACLU is headquartered in New York with a PA state office in Harrisburg, and dozens of local chapters spread throughout the commonwealth.

The key to this structure is the local chapters, which are very pro-active in finding people whose civil liberties have been violated. Local members are constantly on the lookout for media stories, court cases, letters to editors, etc. that might signal a civil liberty issue. If they find potential issues--THEY DO NOT WAIT TO BE CONTACTED--they contact the person or parties and ask if they can help. And if the ACLU becomes involved, there no cost to the person they represent.

Most of the local work is done by normal citizens--ACLU members--who will gather the information and determine if it is a civil liberties case. Then the matter is passed on to lawyer for review and a determination as to whether it has local, state, or national significance.

The ACLU has lawyers available or on staff at every level--local, state, and national--and cases are moved to and filed at the highest level applicable. For example, a case might originate in Lancaster but eventually be handled by the national office because it has broad-ranging civil rights implications.

To add further to their pro-activism, ACLU members are constantly vigilant for new laws and policies being introduced at any level of government. Then they actively lobby for the desired changes, again moving the efforts up the organization ladder when warranted. The powerful fact is, that they are speaking for the organization, not just themselves as single citizens. Anyone reading this should be very familiar with the increasing power of lobbyists in government.

A government official may not like when they pick up the phone and the first words they hear are, "Hello, I'm with ACLU," but you damn sure bet they set up and take notice. And you can bet there will some serious housekeeping done in the ensuing hours.

So What Does This Have to Do with Gun Owners
Consider all of the PA issues which have surfaced in the just past month or so; the Luzerne Sheriff who writes his own LTC rules, Philadelphia's reluctance to issue LTCs in a timely manner, or the PSP's unilateral interpretation of reciprocity laws.

With an organization modeled after the ACLU, local members and lawyers would have immediately stepped in to address the matters--FREE OF CHARGE. If necessary, law suits would be filed, at the appropriate level, to insure not only that the immediate problem was corrected, but that it would unlikely happen again.

Forums such as this one, which I greatly value, can do little more offer moral support, information, or prompt a letter writing campaign. But with a truly pro-active organization, all levels of PA government and law enforcement would quickly realize that someone is watching and know that they will held accountable.

IMHO, we are stuck in the wrong gear. We are trying to shift into low to prevent things from getting any worse. We need cram this sucker into reverse and undo the damage that has already been done.

[phillyd2]

Not a biggest fan of the ACLU but I get your meaning. I had always hoped that PAFOA would be just such a local organization which is why I am a "Major Supporter". Dan has indicated the same hope so lets let him answer in better detail. So far we only have a nifty forum but we are still very young so I think its wrong to judge us too harshly.

[bubba23]

Not a biggest fan of the ACLU but I get your meaning. I had always hoped that PAFOA would be just such a local organization which is why I am a "Major Supporter". Dan has indicated the same hope so lets let him answer in better detail. So far we only have a nifty forum but we are still very young so I think its wrong to judge us too harshly.

I did not mean to judge Dan or PaFOA in my post. I have corresponded with Dan and know that he is just one guy doing a lot in his spare time. And I sincerely appreciate that.

And in many regards, this is more of a National issue than a PA issue, but as I suggested, it should be both. Many states have already usurped my rights to be a legal gun owner in their state. What's wrong with this picture?

We are already at the "Oh shit, looked what happened to us" and we can't really afford sit around on our hands much longer.

[phillyd2]

OK, no issue except that in our system of government the power flows from the bottom up. IMHO we should be putting our main efforts in the PA part of the equation so we don't end up like NJ, NY & MD. This is where I think PAFOA can have the most impact.

We can and should have affiliations with the national organizations but we need to put the "shall not be questioned" back into "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

[ChamberedRound]

If we want to get real technical, we don't need another group like the ACLU, we need the ACLU itself, given that the 2nd Amendment defines a civil liberty. Of course, we all know what the chances of that happening are like...

[bubba23]

IMHO we should be putting our main efforts in the PA part of the equation so we don't end up like NJ, NY & MD. This is where I think PAFOA can have the most impact.

By that same logic, we should be working at the local and county level first, but then we have the same mess we have now. Besides...

When was the power to usurp the constitution ceded to the States? ALL RKBA issues everywhere could cleared away with Federal de-legislation and/or Supreme Court decisions.

[bubba23]

If we want to get real technical, we don't need another group like the ACLU, we need the ACLU itself, given that the 2nd Amendment defines a civil liberty. Of course, we all know what the chances of that happening are like...

Actually the ACLU has successfully handled quite a number of pro-2A cases. The problem is that they're considered so far to the left that most gun owners would rather walk on hot coals than go to the ACLU for help. It's often difficult to accept that the same Constitution that gives us RKBA also gives us the right to burn the flag.

[phillyd2]

By that same logic, we should be working at the local and county level first, but then we have the same mess we have now. Besides...

When was the power to usurp the constitution ceded to the States? ALL RKBA issues everywhere could cleared away with Federal de-legislation and/or Supreme Court decisions.

Not really but I'll leave it at what I already posted. As a example take a look at gun rights in the states surrounding PA to see what can happen on a local level without any change in national laws. Those we send to Congress are the ones who make national laws so yes, local and county level is very important when we selects our Reps.

All major lobbing groups understand the simple concept of grass roots growing from local to national levels as the only realistic way to effect change but if you think you can effect a Supreme Court decision or change national policy - have at it. There are enough national groups that we can support and work with but PA rights are what PAFOA should concentrate on.

Again, just IMHO.

[danp]

The PAFOA hopefully one day will become such an organization, but its focus will most likely remain on Pennsylvania much more than the national spectrum as there are already many much more powerful and established groups working at the national (and state level.) But it won't happen overnight.

The other thing is that there are many groups in Pennsylvania who do a lot of work behind the scenes in making sure Pennsylvanian's rights are protected and we owe them all a debt of gratitude. Many of them don't seem to take a very public face and only a few even have websites, but they're there and fighting the good fight every day.

There is A LOT more to this arena than most people (including myself) ever imagined. When I started PAFOA I expected things to move faster but that is not and will not be the case. Every time you learn something, you just more fully realize how much more you have to learn.

Forging real change requires the building of many solid relationships which take time. The best thing the individual can do is build a very friendly relationship with their legislators, they should know you by name and your reputation for being polite, and informative. As for an organization like the PAFOA I believe it will take more time, most likely years to be where we would like to be, but we are lucky that in Pennsylvania there are the aforementioned groups already in that position doing great work!

The key is to not get upset. Emotional reactions to things put one off balance, cloud judgment, and eventually force hasty action. I for one have seen many firearm owners act before understanding the issue at hand (whether it be writing a letter in response to legislation they didn't fully understand, or misinterpreting someones words and attacking them, etc.)

Patience will always win in the long run. Doing something slowly and correctly, while not nearly as much fun, will be far more effective than doing something quickly and wrong.

[danp]

Actually the ACLU has successfully handled quite a number of pro-2A cases. The problem is that they're considered so far to the left that most gun owners would rather walk on hot coals than go to the ACLU for help. It's often difficult to accept that the same Constitution that gives us RKBA also gives us the right to burn the flag.

The ACLU at the national level adopts a "Collective Rights" stance to the second amendment, they are very much against the individual right to keep and bear arms.

With that said some of their local chapters in Texas and other states disagree and have successfully defended firearm owners.

But as a whole, the ACLU is anti-gun.