Carbine Training?

[Helter]

I wouldn't pay 10 cents to train with that clown. There reputation has been dropping like a rock after their photography stunt not long ago...
Here is a good thread...>http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32649 Take the time to go through some of the pages it gets quite humorous.

Eh, it wasn't a "stunt", it's just how that instructor runs his class.

[d90king]

Eh, it wasn't a "stunt", it's just how that instructor runs his class.

Call it what you want, but it was sheer stupidity and was the WRONG thing to do especially with that group of shooters.

Here is what Paul Howe had to say...

I surf the forums and read posts from time to time to see what people are saying about training and to check on new equipment that is being tested and R & D. I recently viewed the video where the cameraman was filming downrange of students while they were live firing on targets next to him. The students of this class, instructor/discipline are emotional and passionate about protecting their instructor’s reputation as is the lead instructor in his YouTube response. I do not wish to crush the instructor or his school, but do have a few safety points to address. Further, I have plenty of business and do not wish to take any from this school. I just want to see all the “good guys/gals” go home at the end of the day and not die because of fratricide.

In his rebuttal to the avalanche of hate mail, he goes on the air and states that safety is unattainable and that true safety does not exist. He also states that firearms are inherently dangerous.

I have to disagree. I train 90% law enforcement and 10% civilians. I added a few
safety rules to the basic four. I added these the day I started my training business and they come from my experience in field and the training arena. I have about 3 years experience in the LE arena, 20 in the military (10 special ops) and 9 in the private sector.

As for putting a cameraman downrange, better solutions could have been found.
Use the camera remote. Or at least have cameraman wear body armor and a ballistic helmet. I think it was a poor decision to put someone’s live in jeopardy over action guy photos.

Watching the students who were firing, the skills were nowhere near where they
needed to be for my comfort zone. Not that I go downrange, but have witnessed the same type training in my career. Many of the school’s instructors/students feel this builds confidence. I have no problem with this type thinking, only you need to first have skills to do it safely and have control valves in place.
I will try and elaborate on the safety rules below:

UNIVERSAL SAFETY RULES PLUS…

1) All guns are always loaded.
Know how to properly load and unload your weapon and do it in a safe
direction.

2) Finger off the trigger until sights are on target.
Know the trigger control for the shot required.

3) Never let your muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
This includes slinging your primary weapon.

4) Know your targets foreground and background.
You as the shooter are required to make a safe shot leading to the target
and are responsible should the bullet leave the target. You can slide
right/left or up or down to make this happen.

5) Weapon is kept on safe with straight trigger finger in a low or high ready
until a target is identified.
Low ready Rifle, High Ready or a Depressed Ready with pistol.

6) Once a target is engaged, the sector may be swept with the weapon on fire
and trigger finger straight.
This applies to room CQB and multiple targets. I teach students to
remove their finger from the trigger when transitioning targets on a flat
range so they will not ride a trigger across a hostage under high stress.
Sympathetic discharges have occurred when riding the trigger.

7) The safety will be engaged prior to any movement or once “clear” is
given.
Soldiers and officers will fall, trip, stumble during operations. Shithole
houses and real buildings which they assault are not clean and sterile like
flat ranges.

8) Shooter to front has priority of fire.
This is where I see many problems that other instructors do not. I
routinely see shooters shooting over the top of their teammates or fellow
students from several feet back, both in training and short combat video
clips. This is dangerous. Four out of five times you will get away with it,
the fifth you will shoot the guy in front of you. You see, you have a hard
focus on the target and the guy downrange/in front of you may decide to
move left/right up or down to get out of the line of fire or make a more
effective shot. When he does, he will move into the path of your bullets.
There are tactical ways to fix this, but it would take too much time to
address it here. I will leave you with this. I have seen one department
violate this rule twice in two years, each time shooting and crippling an
officer to the front. I see many instructors in live fire video and in still
pictures, violating this rule with their students. They are lucky for the
moment.

9) Engage your safety prior to working on injured personnel
(hostages/downed officers), to include the manipulation of suspects.
Your adrenaline will be pumping and you do not want to accidently shoot
a patient you are working on or a suspect you are controlling. This has
happened before.

9) Engage safety of downed officer’s weapon prior to working on or moving
them.
We must create a safe environment to treat someone. This may mean
moving them to cover first. If their weapon AD’s while dragging them, it
might cause injury to them or another officer/good guy.

10) Never run behind any target.
Whether in a shoot house or on a field range, knock down targets prior to
passing them. If you do not, someone may see and shoot the target and
not see you behind or on the other side of it. I have seen this happen many
times in my military career.

12) WHEN IN DOUBT, DON’T PULL THE TRIGGER.
All students come in with a different skill set and experience level. You
must train them how you want them to react and how to look and
interpret various situations and act accordingly. This takes time,
patience and experience.

Further, LE/Civilian tactics/training may require two skill sets. I will use the
example of the “High Sabrina” position demonstrated by students in the video.
When students take a knee to engage, have them scan behind them from the
kneeling position first with their head and not a weapon. First look to ensure
no one is shooting close to them. Next, the police will be arriving soon. In the
civilian situation, you are an unknown standing over a body when officers
arrive. You just fired several rounds and have auditory exclusion (hearing is
impaired). You may not hear police officers shouting command to you. If you
turn with a weapon, there is a good chance you are going to get shot.
Responding officers only know what they see, an unknown person standing
over a body with a gun and now that person turns toward them with a gun.
When law enforcement or military guys turn, they are in a uniform and can
easily be distinguished from the bad guys.

Students who grow up in one discipline only know what they have been shown.
Their instructors may have a limited skill set and limited experience and will
not find out why something is dangerous until someone gets shot.
As for some of the comments from armchair commandos, I will leave you with
this. Unless you have been in special ops for a few successful years, you don’t
know fuckall about what they do or do not do. I read where individuals
reference a short clip of soldiers shooting in training or combat actions and say,
“see, they are doing it.” Yes they are and they are probably doing it wrong or
in an unsafe manner, especially shooting from behind or over individuals from
an unsafe distance. I see it all the time. This includes some spec ops guys. The
military does not always have the best training available and when screw-ups
do happen, they are mostly covered up or attributed to enemy fire. The
military does a poor job of passing down lessons learned and many times spend
more effort training foreigners that their own troops deploying.

Further, as the current conflicts wind down, there will be more instructors
coming to the U.S. scene to teach and instruct. Check out their credentials and
ask them about their safety protocols. If they are weak or shallow, be suspect. I
would be suspect of an instructor who was in a special operations unit for only
one year and then leaves or is pushed out and decides to be a civilian instructor.
Did he get kicked out for screwing up? Is this the person I want to model my
training, life or profession after?

Finally, if I could not train students safely, I would be out of a job. This is why
teach safety as my first block of instruction in all my tactical classes and
continually hammer it home during the entire class. I have a successful system
that I use that has been developed over 30 years of training, refining and
reviewing why accidents happen. I try and learn something each day I train
and still be consistent with my safety protocols.

As for the statement that safety is unattainable, this is false. This is only true if
your ego is too big or your experience level too limited.

LINK:http://www.combatshootingandtactics....ate_July09.pdf

[ALS]

U.S. Training Center (USTC) instructors are chosen for their experience, professional attitude and passion for the industry. They are carefully chosen professionals who come from a variety of Military and Law Enforcement agencies throughout the country. Some of these agencies include:

•US Navy SEAL Teams
•Australian Special Air Service
•Canadian Special Forces
•United Kingdom Special Boat Service
•US Army Special Forces
•US Marine Corps
•US Army Rangers
•SWAT Teams

USTC instructors understand the importance of high quality training and know that training often means the difference between life and death because they have been there; either on the “mean streets” or “down range” with real world experience. They are committed and feel it is their responsibility to bring you the best in tactical and firearms training. They have developed a training methodology that has proven itself in real world situations.

U.S.Training courses

[ungawa]

That said, I've preferred the travelling instructor classes.

I think a pretty good compromise is:

http://www.insightstraining.com/

...they come to Harrisburg several times a year, and the range is, I hear, top-notch.

I went there, they did a good job. I think we had about 12 students and they sent one instructor and two coaches. Not sure you can ask for more than that. One of the coaches is a serious trainer for a very serious federal agency. We all met for dinner, too, which was kind of nice.

Just a warning - their customer service SUCKS. The don't answer the phone, never return calls, and rarely ever return emails. But I will defintely consider their training in the future based on my needs and their schedule.

[Helter]

Call it what you want, but it was sheer stupidity and was the WRONG thing to do especially with that group of shooters.

Here is what Paul Howe had to say...

LINK:http://www.combatshootingandtactics....ate_July09.pdf

I'm not going to get into this argument again. The 4 rules of safe shooting were not violated, and the guy is a professional which in my mind means he can choose how to run his classes and what risks he would like to subject himself too.

If you actually read Pauls writeup, as long as it is, most of it doesn't actually have anything to do with the situation.
In fact, the only direct comment he makes about the video is that there are other ways to accomplish the goal, and he wouldn't be comfortable with it. I have no problem with that statement, and if the camera guy was being forced to work downrange like that I might even agree with him. He's not though, he made his own professional judgement call that this was safe enough with that group of students.
That's my take on it. Clearly you disagree, and as I said I'm not interested in getting into it again.

[d90king]

That's my take on it. Clearly you disagree, and as I said I'm not interested in getting into it again.

Fair enough, we can disagree as gentleman and move on.



























I'm still right though. j/k

[d90king]

U.S.Training courses

I have heard good things about their classes and I understand their facility is awesome!

[synergy]

I'm not going to get into this argument again. The 4 rules of safe shooting were not violated, and the guy is a professional which in my mind means he can choose how to run his classes and what risks he would like to subject himself too.

If you actually read Pauls writeup, as long as it is, most of it doesn't actually have anything to do with the situation.
In fact, the only direct comment he makes about the video is that there are other ways to accomplish the goal, and he wouldn't be comfortable with it. I have no problem with that statement, and if the camera guy was being forced to work downrange like that I might even agree with him. He's not though, he made his own professional judgement call that this was safe enough with that group of students.
That's my take on it. Clearly you disagree, and as I said I'm not interested in getting into it again.

Well, I am.

Yeager is anything BUT a professional. He has consistently embarrassed himself doing stupid shit.

Anyone who fucks up as bad as he did in Iraq, gets his teammates killed, then blames THEM in his AAR...is a low life. Anyone who THEN goes on to try and market courses on "high risk civilian contracting" is just a thief.

Yeager is now offering HRCC courses on driving (when this ass-clown forgot to take the brake off, and got his teammates killed) and CQB and Direct Action. JY's experience with these two topics include hiding in a ditch while his teammates with the courage to operate in that environment returned fire and extracted the wounded from the vehicles.

After this major fuck-up, he should have gotten out of the industry.

So his real world experience comes down to being a cop in a small town in Tennessee. And working on their SWAT team. I'd like to know how many opposed entries they had....my bet is zero, during JY's time with them. Strapping on all your cool-guy gear and flash-banging a dude watching TV who's behind on his child support payments, doesn't make you a bad-ass. To quote a trainer worth listening to..."Your tactics can only be verified by your enemy." JY's hasn't had anything verified, except that he keeps fucking up.

Then there's this little gem, where he reverses the steps taken to unload a pistol. He directly contradicts what every organization teaches, and offers no reason for it. When I confronted him about it, I got banned on his little forum...can't have anyone brave enough to question "the master" i guess.


You could shred the hard TTP's they teach there, like grabbing the mag-well on rifles, or grasping the slide instead of using the slide release to chamber a round, or a number of other things....if you ever wanted to even get that far with them.

BTW, one of their instructors shot some people recently... (edit: as of 5/25/10 - all charges have been dismissed http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-1...cebook%3A18115)

A fight between two families ends with someone pulling a gun and shooting.

Tucson Police say trouble had been brewing between the families for a week over their pre-school children.

Investigators say Lawrence Hickey, 36, pulled out a gun and shot three people.

All three are expected to be okay.

Hickey is charged with three counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and two count of aggravated assault causing serious injury.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=9378322

Why anyone would want to train with a dangerous hack, who can't walk the walk...I will never understand.

[Steelblitz]

It gets my goat that some people here knock basic military training who obviously have not experienced the full plethora of training the military can give you. You have to understand that boot camps and infantry training schools are BASIC training. Basic training is to get everyone on the same page and acquainted with some basic fundamentals. Anybody who has done any time with an infantry unit knows that most of your training and the best you'll get will be acquired on the small unit level throughout your service. It will be up to good officers and good NCO's to develop each unit member under them.

Let's take the basic Marine experience....you go to PI, you learn basic marksmanship with a rifle and are introduced into teamwork using that rifle. Next onto ITS. You get specialized training in your weapon you will carry and tactics to employ it. From there you can go to the next specialty school or be assigned to a unit. The unit is where you will get the much better focused training. It was not uncommon in any unit I was in for each person to have the opportunity to go to take advanced courses each year such as mountain warfar, sniper, CQB. We trained with special forces of any branch, we trained with every federal agency out there like the FBI, BATF, and DEA. It's a process that takes time going through the various schools in your unit. In the end, you're generally left with the best of the best in what they can do. Those that can't hack it are weeded out along the way. The training recieved at the small unit level I recieved is easily equivalent to any of the classes out there today that are talked about on here. Where do you think those instructors recieved their training to offer you guys....most from the military. Take it, some in the military may never learn the proper way to clear a room with hostages, but if you want to learn that, bust your ass in your regular duty, volunteer for every course that presents itself to you, and you'll get your opporuntity to get the worlds best training.

Why do I like Magpul and US Training Center? Their training most closely resembles advanced weapons manipulation and tactics I was taught. They teach you methods that have proven track records of creating positive results working in a hostile situation. The instructors at those classes dont necessarily say "this is the way to do it and there is no other way" but they'll work with you on your technique, advise you of fundamental problems if they see it with you, and try to infuse sound methods with whatever technique/style works with you. Also, don't think that taking a 3 day course will make you proficient in what you were taught. Going back to the military, we would do that type of intense training twice a month on top of our normal duty and training. That's what it takes to become proficient.

[ungawa]

It gets my goat that some people here knock basic military training who obviously have not experienced the full plethora of training the military can give you. You have to understand that boot camps and infantry training schools are BASIC training. Basic training is to get everyone on the same page and acquainted with some basic fundamentals. Anybody who has done any time with an infantry unit knows that most of your training and the best you'll get will be acquired on the small unit level throughout your service. It will be up to good officers and good NCO's to develop each unit member under them.

I agree 100%. Like I said, people think combat arms units go through basic and that's it. They mop floors and paint curbs for the rest of their enlistment. Obviously that is not the case. You sign up for 4 years, you spend most of that time training to fight and/or in combat. In AIRBORNE units, and many Marine units, the people are even training to fight while off duty during times they are not in combat.

What is true is that not all of this 100% prepares you for civilian or LEO encounters. There is more that most combat arms need to learn to be as effective as they possibly can for civilian self-defense or employment engagements. Further, most combat arms are light on handgun training. Not all, but most.

But there is no doubt I would partner with somebody that just ETS's combat arms over somebody that had a three-day training class and practiced what he learned for a few months.