Carbine Training?

[synergy]

You left out EAG and your just jealous that Costa's beard is cooler than your little scruff... I am going to catch them when they come east. It looks like a pretty "dynamic" class... I also wouldn't rule out US Training (Blackwater) either...

I would start with Vickers to get a very sold foundation of fundamentals and then try others after him... He is a great instructor and not to far away when he holds classes at South Hill. Ronnie77 and I will be heading down in Oct for a 3day Pistol/Carbine II course.

Nah, just the MagPul stuff seems a little excessive to me. I'd sign up for a class from Haley... but Costa just doesn't strike me as someone I want to learn from. Oh well.

FWIW, the guys who were with my buddy at his instructor course had done a MagPul class. They felt that most of what they learned, they'd never use....lots of "another tool in the toolbox" stuff. Just not what I feel the need to work on, personally.

EAG...again, just doesn't seem like some place I'd rather go over the initial group of trainers I listed.

Not that they're way of doing things doesn't work...just that it doesn't fit as well with what I've learned so far.

[bmarchese]

I've been looking into heading up to Sig Academy. The main location is in Epping, NH which is about a 6 hour dive from SEPA. Anyone have any opinions on their courses?

[dgg9]

I've been looking into heading up to Sig Academy. The main location is in Epping, NH which is about a 6 hour dive from SEPA. Anyone have any opinions on their courses?

A friend of mine (who lives nearby in NH) took their basic 3-day pistol course. The material and instructors and facility are all very good. Whether that offsets the cost is up to you.

They get really good guest instructors, too. I think John Farnam is bringing his "Urban Rifle" course there in a few months.

[synergy]

I've been looking into heading up to Sig Academy. The main location is in Epping, NH which is about a 6 hour dive from SEPA. Anyone have any opinions on their courses?

I think for the same travel time you could train with Vickers, TigerSwan, Viking Tactics, InSights, or Jeff Gonzales.

I'm leery of large schools like Gunsite, Blackwater, or any of the manufacturers "schools". I want to know exactly who it is I'm paying to learn from, before I commit to a class.

The groups I mentioned above have top notch staff....I would personally prefer to learn from those guys, above pretty much everyone else.

[ungawa]

Haha!

It's kind of a shame that you can learn better tactics and shooting techniques in a few weekend courses, than you can in OSUT.

Oh well...

11B does not mop floors 7 days a week after OSUT is over. I know 4 years of it is better than a few weekends of paid courses. Different, but better.

Although, I understand the training organizations knock military training. For a couple reasons. First, because it is partially true. Especially when considering civilian requirements. Or military personel that are not combat arms. Second, because that is how they make their money. They stress it, and all good students learn it along with their tactics and shooting techniques.

[synergy]

11B does not mop floors 7 days a week after OSUT is over. I know 4 years of it is better than a few weekends of paid courses. Different, but better.

Although, I understand the training organizations knock military training. For a couple reasons. First, because it is partially true. Especially when considering civilian requirements. Or military personel that are not combat arms. Second, because that is how they make their money. They stress it, and all good students learn it along with their tactics and shooting techniques.

Yeah, I see your point.....but at the same time, some of my old battle buddies from OSUT are heading overseas in the next few months.

I have a friend of mine ready to deploy with 3rd division, 3rd ID as a combat medic. He's a better shooter than many in his platoon...he was the guy who first introduced me to shooting. He should be going over in the next month or two.

My point is that the Army is ready to send you on deployments without attending any other schools than OSUT. We were told pretty often that many of us would be heading downrange within 6 months....and a lot of the guys who aren't going onto Airborne and other schools, are.

It's just a pet peeve of mine. I wish they spent more time teaching good material, before guys were deployed in the fight. I made a lot of friends there, who were good guys, that had no background in tactical shooting. You could see that they just didn't have enough repetitions with live fire, to really gain the confidence and mastery of the techniques they'll need to win the fight.

It just bugs me, a lot. Hopefully they'll have some older, wiser guys watching their back in their new units, while they figure things out and get more proficient with their TTP's.

[ungawa]

You also make some good points for sure. Nowadays, combat comes pretty quickly after initial training for many.

Hopefully they'll have some older, wiser guys watching their back in their new units, while they figure things out and get more proficient with their TTP's.

Of course they will. They don't send OSUT graduating classes to combat as a unit.

But you are right. A lot of new guys are getting shipped out. I think they count on the "dilution is the solution" principle rather than more intensive initial training.

[dgg9]

I think for the same travel time you could train with Vickers, TigerSwan, Viking Tactics, InSights, or Jeff Gonzales.

I'm leery of large schools like Gunsite, Blackwater, or any of the manufacturers "schools". I want to know exactly who it is I'm paying to learn from, before I commit to a class.

The groups I mentioned above have top notch staff....I would personally prefer to learn from those guys, above pretty much everyone else.

I agree that with the top-shelf traveling instructors you get the best instructors. The big-box school instructors aren't as well known, though of course people like Lou Awerbuck started out as generic big-box instructors first, so you never know.

The value of the big-box schools are:

1. Great facility, and consistent. Traveling instructors have to use whatever range they can find; sometimes there are SNAFUs with equipment; not being able to get this or that piece of gear at the last minute. With the big-box places, everything has been long since worked out.

2. Superior teacher-student ratio.

3. Regular classes. The travelling guys come and go and may not be in your AO for years at a time. The big-box school will have regular classes.

That said, I've preferred the travelling instructor classes.

I think a pretty good compromise is:

http://www.insightstraining.com/

...they come to Harrisburg several times a year, and the range is, I hear, top-notch.

Also

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/

brings classes to PA several times a year and they maintain a good teacher-student ratio.

[d90king]

Also

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/

brings classes to PA several times a year and they maintain a good teacher-student ratio.

I wouldn't pay 10 cents to train with that clown. There reputation has been dropping like a rock after their photography stunt not long ago...
Here is a good thread...>http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32649 Take the time to go through some of the pages it gets quite humorous.

[dgg9]

I wouldn't pay 10 cents to train with that clown.

I don't see the big deal, but in any event, TR has a large staff. I've taken 5 days of instruction from them, and none of the days had the main guy there.