"We reserve the right to check all bags" -- Hofbrauhaus

[urbanamish99]

It looks like they are looking for folks stealing glassware.

The glassware that I bought when I was there could not be easily concealed in anything short of a diaper bag or feed sack. Truly a big 1 liter beer stein.

[archangel689]

"reserving the right to check everyone" seems to suggest without Probable Cause

And considering the history of the place, it wouldn't surprise me.
http://tracesofevil.blogspot.com/200...fbrauhaus.html

Penn Brewing really needs to get their act back together.

[mjfletcher]

There are no legalities. If you are on their land, or wish to be there, you submit to the conditions by your own free will. You are free not to go there and you are free to leave if you dont like the conditions a property owner has made.

I can require that you open carry your guns and dress up like Laura Croft, then require that your purse be searched as part of the permission to be on my property.

Think PennsyPlinker.

[Bruce]

There are no legalities. If you are on their land, or wish to be there, you submit to the conditions by your own free will. You are free not to go there and you are free to leave if you dont like the conditions a property owner has made.

I can require that you open carry your guns and dress up like Laura Croft, then require that your purse be searched as part of the permission to be on my property.

FTW!

Using "Trespassing" laws, you (as a property renter/owner) can set whatever rules or guidelines you choose to set on *your* property. If people fail to comply, you can eject them from your property (once again, using "Trespass" laws).

However, asking you (possibly making you, if things escalate) to leave (the property) is as far as this "law" extends. If you fail to leave, you can accrue guilt of more and more severe "trespass" crimes (I think they go up to class A misdemeanor? - I'm not sure), some of which you can be arrested and jailed for.
.

[headcase]

They can reserve whatever they want to reserve, in the same way you can reserve the right to politely tell them to GFT and leave. I am fairly certain this was covered in a walmart thread about receipt checking. I am not 100% sure, so research it, but think along the lines of if the sign said, "We reserve the right to reach under your shirt and fondle your nipples as you leave". They can set up a check point as you come in and require you to submit to pretty much whatever they want, as a condition of entry or even to remain, but they can not require you to submit to shit as a requirement of exiting. The rules of probable cause have to come into play somewhere for them to detain you.

Again, IANAL, so research it.

[mjf]

They can reserve whatever they want to reserve, in the same way you can reserve the right to politely tell them to GFT and leave. I am fairly certain this was covered in a walmart thread about receipt checking. I am not 100% sure, so research it, but think along the lines of if the sign said, "We reserve the right to reach under your shirt and fondle your nipples as you leave". They can set up a check point as you come in and require you to submit to pretty much whatever they want, as a condition of entry or even to remain, but they can not require you to submit to shit as a requirement of exiting. The rules of probable cause have to come into play somewhere for them to detain you.

Again, IANAL, so research it.

Quoting an old gunlawyer001 post:

Even if this thread is based on a fabricated variation of an Internet story, it has served a useful function or two.

There was 100% agreement that the hypothetical "kidnapping by WalMart greeters" scenario would not justify the drawing and pointing of a firearm. I don't recall the last time that there was 100% agreement over dozens of pages of posts here.

Also, everyone here shops somewhere, and it's become apparent that many of us are confused about our rights and obligations under PA law when leaving a store, as well as confused about whether a shopkeeper can lawfully hinder our exit. We might well have saved one or two people from grief in the future, as they might otherwise have asserted non-existent rights to be free from all question or hindrance from store personnel, and escalated things based upon that false belief. The lesson here is that if you have a receipt, show it, and if you don't have a receipt, you're in trouble.

BTW, if you are exiting WITHOUT any merchandise, and store personnel insist on searching you in an office, just make sure that you remain calm as you refuse them permission to search you, refuse to go anywhere voluntarily. Make them coerce you through physical contact or threats, and try to corral a witness. Store video is useful, especially if they "lose" it before trial. Demand that the police be called, this way there will be written evidence and an independent witness for the tort suit. If you are not visibly carrying merchandise, and the store can't produce video of you stashing items in your coat, then you do have a potentially tasty lawsuit. UNREASONABLE store conduct is actionable, while REASONABLE store conduct is permitted. Stay reasonable while they act unreasonably, and you may get a payday.

[HiredGoon]

Seems like the main problem here is that they do not display the sign to folks when they enter... so you do not know they want to check bags until you see the sign upon exiting.

They should have the sign visible when entering so patrons can decide if they want to be subject to these searches...if not, they will go elsewhere. Of course, maybe that's the reason they do not display the sign at the entrance.

Do they have any signs prohibiting guns on their property?

[archangel689]

They should have the sign visible when entering so patrons can decide if they want to be subject to these searches...if not, they will go elsewhere. Of course, maybe that's the reason they do not display the sign at the entrance.

I still don't think they'd legally be able to detain you without probable cause (ie: someone saw you shove a mug in your bag) even with a sign, just like they couldn't fondle you if they put up a sign as someone said earlier.
I think the post by gunlawyer cleared it up, if you haven't stolen anything and they detain/search you under duress, they're in deep doo doo. Needless to say I'll be aware the next time I go there. There are some lumberjacks they have working that place and I could see something like this happening. The sign implies they don't know the law, or don't care.

In the case of prohibiting guns on their property via sign (correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't think that matters either (I didn't see a sign) as the worst they can do is tell you to leave, which they can do for any reason anyway (Trespass).

(PS: Not a lawyer)

--

That sign ("We reserve the right to inspect your bags" is meaningless in the United States.

What probable cause was there that a crime had been committed?

IIRC, if a Security type is going to make an arrest, several things have to happen:

The seven steps of the Retailer's Law of Arrest are:

Require that in all cases the apprehending employee be positive that a person has committed a crime. Do not take unnecessary chances; it is not worth the risk. You must be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the suspect did commit the shoplifting crime.

The apprehending employee must have the suspect under observation prior to the taking of the merchandise--a very important guideline.

I first learned the importance of this strategy 20 years ago when one of our store's best detectives reached the top of an escalator just as a woman was removing a blouse off the rack and placing it into her purchase bag. This suspect was apprehended as she left the store. On investigation, however, we found that this customer had purchased a blouse two days earlier, and had returned to exchange her blouse for one she liked better. Since there were no employees in the blouse department when this customer arrived, she decided to exchange her blouse for the one on the rack. As she was doing this, the detective arrived just in time to see her place the blouse in her bag. This mistake cost our store $30,000 because the detective did not have this woman under observation prior to seeing her take the blouse.

The apprehending employee must see the suspect take the merchandise and be able to prove that the suspect did not pay for it or have any intention of paying for it.

The apprehending employee must know where the stolen merchandise is, be able to identify it, and not lose sight of the suspect.

The suspect must always be given ample opportunity to pay for the merchandise. If possible, it is best to make the apprehension after the suspect has passed the last point where the item can be paid for.

A suspect should never be apprehended in the area where the merchandise was taken. While it is true that some state statutes have concealment clauses, over the years there have been too many instances in which a customer for some reason has placed an item in their pocket or purse and later paid for it. The last thing you want is to unjustly accuse anyone of committing a crime.

An apprehension should never be made based on someone else's word. The apprehending employee must be required to observe the suspect take the merchandise. Any other person giving this information could be mistaken, or the suspect may have seen this person contacting your employee and then "ditched' the merchandise.

From HERE: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...v26/ai_6087617

[Brown-Bear]

I hate to say it, but Is ee thiose signs everywhere and they don't bother me. Should they? Maybe its because I know they cant really make me do anything, so I won't be doing anything that I don't want to. But then again maybe its just that I know most of the world is ignorant to the laws that actually govern this nation and that signs like those mean nothing to me.