Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchoolPC View Post
    Also note that remaining after being verbally ordered to leave, is criminal trespass. IANAL
    It looks like criminal trespass can end up as a felony, but I would assume that would require the trespasser to remain on the property and refuse to leave until police arrived, as them leaving prior to that seems to nullify the 'criminal' part of it, unless they left their deer on 'your' front lawn and decided at the last minute to leave it there to avoid arrest.

    I live near a large tract of land owned by the City of Bethlehem, which also includes a large lake which is their water supply. There were at least a dozen cars parked off the main road yesterday, as well as on the shoulder of PA-33 in a few places. I understand that they may have been given permission to hunt there, or maybe even have that allowance for public use on their land, or maybe they were just not hoping for the owner to magically show up on the top of a semi-obscure mountain and tell them they were trespassing.

    I make the assumption that at least in this part of the country, all land is owned by somebody. I see where hunting on state gamelands takes the guesswork out of the issue.
    ...and they have a plan...

  2. #42
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidTM View Post
    Well, what the ADA states is that "reasonable accommodations" need to be made. So, the next step is....what exactly are these "reasonable accommodations"?

    In my specific case all I was asking for was use. I needed nothing else. I needed no special unloading ramp, no special graded trail, no special anything. I just wanted to be allowed to use my own cart on the land. And the cart was designed to be used on trails at low speed (top speed 7mph) had posi-traction, was electric so no other hunter would be disturbed, and had turf tires so no damage to any planted fields would be damaged.

    In the case of wheelchairs, "reasonable accommodations" could and should be considered enough that a chair built to traverse the woods and existing trails would be "reasonable." No extraordinary expenditures would be required to make "reasonable accommodations." In other words....no one is asking you to spend enough dollars to make cliff climbing do-able for the disabled. That would be "unreasonable."
    I agree with your statement of what is reasonable. However, I have little confidence in court system to come to a reasonable decision about what a reasonable accommodation might be.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by nater99 View Post
    I agree with your statement of what is reasonable. However, I have little confidence in court system to come to a reasonable decision about what a reasonable accommodation might be.

    Well, the point is....it doesn't have to get to a court in order for "reasonable accommodation" to be determined. That can be just an agreement between the organization and the disabled individual. Seems easy enough.

    Besides, if said organization can't afford an elaborate "accommodation", then how could any reasonable person expect it to be done?

  4. #44
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidTM View Post
    Well, the point is....it doesn't have to get to a court in order for "reasonable accommodation" to be determined. That can be just an agreement between the organization and the disabled individual. Seems easy enough.

    Besides, if said organization can't afford an elaborate "accommodation", then how could any reasonable person expect it to be done?
    I'm no expert in the ADA, but I seem to recall that in an employment context, the courts consider it "reasonable" for an employer to pay the handicapped person the normal salary, plus pay up to 10% more in accommodation costs. For a truly skilled employee, that might make sense; but the law doesn't factor that in.

    I'm personally not a fan of the ADA, to the extent that it only protects employees who can prove that they can't do the job as well as others. Add in all the inane OSHA laws (not the ones saying that buzz saws need to have safety guards, but the ones mandating toilet height, and handicap ramps at rock climbing facilities), taxes, unfunded medical mandates, strict liability tort laws for dangers that nobody could have known about...and America is not a business-friendly environment. Which is weird, because all of the grand schemes of the Progressives depend on the continuation of the cornucopia of wealth that capitalism creates. It's like hobbling your own plow horse, then siphoning off a quart or two of blood every day, while planning to plow an extra 100 acres this year but cutting back on the feed budget.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I'm no expert in the ADA, but I seem to recall that in an employment context, the courts consider it "reasonable" for an employer to pay the handicapped person the normal salary, plus pay up to 10% more in accommodation costs. For a truly skilled employee, that might make sense; but the law doesn't factor that in.
    I know next to nothing concerning the ADA and employment related matters. I think....and this could be a long stretch, but I think "employment" related matters fall under Title I of the ADA. I know that when I worked for a living, I had (I'll call 'em "RS") RS's that bought buildings in certian municipalities. These Muni's would require the business to have all aspects of the buildings meet the ADA code. Even though the only individual who was there was one self-employed person....none of his customers ever came to this place of business....and he never hired any employees. Crazy? Yes considering that if he sold the building, in order for the buyer to get an occupancy permit, the Muni inspector had to re-inspect the building for several items including all ADA matters.

    That was a case of "What?"

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I'm personally not a fan of the ADA, to the extent that it only protects employees who can prove that they can't do the job as well as others. Add in all the inane OSHA laws (not the ones saying that buzz saws need to have safety guards, but the ones mandating toilet height, and handicap ramps at rock climbing facilities), taxes, unfunded medical mandates, strict liability tort laws for dangers that nobody could have known about...and America is not a business-friendly environment. Which is weird, because all of the grand schemes of the Progressives depend on the continuation of the cornucopia of wealth that capitalism creates. It's like hobbling your own plow horse, then siphoning off a quart or two of blood every day, while planning to plow an extra 100 acres this year but cutting back on the feed budget.
    Well, once you become disabled you look at the world a little differently. Now, granted there are those who do everything they can to collect DI, ride the train, and push it for all it's worth. OTOH, there are others who just want a level playing field.

    So, what's wrong with a level playing field? If the cost is nothing or minimal, then why not?

    In my case it's a Title III matter and in my case it would cost the Club nothing....NADA....ZIP. But, what it would do is let me have access to places where the big bucks run. And the "old time" members didn't want me up there killing a big deer while they were at work. Really? Over a deer? Really? They never said this.....but I know the mentality of this group. All 14 year old's at best. Really....a deer? Really? At a cost of what? Nothing?

    One of the Board members is the Mayor of a local town and one of the newest members is or was an employee of the Childrens Institute. Really? Does anyone get this?

  6. #46
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidTM View Post
    . . . .
    Well, once you become disabled you look at the world a little differently. Now, granted there are those who do everything they can to collect DI, ride the train, and push it for all it's worth. OTOH, there are others who just want a level playing field.

    So, what's wrong with a level playing field? If the cost is nothing or minimal, then why not?

    In my case it's a Title III matter and in my case it would cost the Club nothing....NADA....ZIP. But, what it would do is let me have access to places where the big bucks run. And the "old time" members didn't want me up there killing a big deer while they were at work. Really? Over a deer? Really? They never said this.....but I know the mentality of this group. All 14 year old's at best. Really....a deer? Really? At a cost of what? Nothing?

    . . . .
    I obviously know nothing about your circumstances, so I can't comment except to say that there is usually prejudice on all sides of any issue. One side may hate the gimps, the other side sees invidious, irrational discrimination in every roadblock. The truth is often somewhere in the middle. They may be selfish, redneck a-holes, or they may be concerned about liability issues (because they are on notice that you would be carting around the semi-wilderness in a wheeled vehicle, and one good lawsuit would kill the club), or the noise of the vehicle, or some other issue. Opposition is not always due to actual malice, even if it frequently is.

    I'm not sure what a "level playing field" is in the context of special protections for a certain narrowly-defined group. If NASCAR officials let some of the drivers start out a lap ahead of the others, because their cars aren't as fast, does that "level the playing field", or are you rigging the game? When Harvard hired Elizabeth Warren because of her claims to Indian ancestry, and Harvard included her in their brochure pimping their diversity, has that false "handicap" minority status become a competitive edge, like a fake diploma?

    Outside the ADA, if the law punishes an employer for not hiring someone because it's expected that she is more likely to become pregnant and leave the job for an extended period, is that "leveling the playing field" or is it forcing employers to choose against their own interests? People are not groceries, but given a free choice, at the same price, who wouldn't choose the unblemished apple over the one with some bruises?

    I know the arguments, that employers are missing out on highly-skilled geniuses if they focus on hiring people who don't need special breaks and who will actually be present on the job most of the time. I have to say that those high-value employees probably will find a niche in the market without govt help, like talented prima donas get movie deals because they have what the market wants despite the pain-in-the-ass that it is to deal with them. If you watch FOX news, Charles Krauthammer is in a wheelchair, but it wouldn't occur to anyone that he keeps his job because of the ADA; he keeps his job because he knows his stuff and he'd be an asset even if he had Tourette's and cursed loudly every few minutes (sorta like Bob Beckel.)

    My experience has been that the ADA employment laws most strongly protect the essentially useless employees, the ones who arrive late and leave early and blow off Mondays and Fridays with "migraines" or unspecified "having a bad day", because they know they're protected and will sue you if you fire them. The really good somewhat-disabled employees make you glad to have them despite their issues, the law is there to protect the not-really-good employees. The laws create a real cost to hiring such folks, because (like hiring your wife's nephew) you can't realistically ever fire them unless you catch them committing a felony on company property. It should be legal to adjust their salary downward to compensate for the extra "reasonable accommodations" that the govt is happy to require you to spend so that they can take credit for "caring about the problems of the people". The total cost of every employee with the same skills should be the same, we shouldn't pay more for the handicapped just because they're handicapped and we shouldn't pay men more than women just because they're men. And the games that companies have to play to get talented black executives are just insane.

    Businesses exist so long as they can make a profit, and a business staffed with ADA-protected people is at a competitive disadvantage with respect to a purely market-driven company. Is our economy so robust these days that it can survive the legal hobbling imposed by the govt? I dunno, how's the employment situation today?

    The law has turned moderately disabled people into the equivalent of "energy-efficient lights", because the law forces you to get them, they don't really work the way you wanted them to work, and they are a lot harder to legally get rid of. That's why the govt keeps tightening the rules, because the market manipulation goes against the interests of the many.

    The law has also given an undeserved taint to ALL handicapped employees, much like hard-working blacks are accused of having their jobs only because of preferences. Justice Clarence Thomas is an example of a hard-working, talented man who earned his job, yet the people supposedly on the "caring" side of the aisle flat-out accuse him of only succeeding because of Affirmative Action. Personally, I believe that talent can overcome handicaps, and that if you empower weakness you end up with more weakness. Does anybody believe that "handicapped parking" tags and placards are only used by genuinely handicapped people, or are they like VIP parking passes these days?
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    It may be exactly as you say. I don't know you or the extent to which you are disabled. I do wonder though, if you shot one of the monster bucks the old cranks are protecting-
    how would you dress and drag it out if you need a motorized cart just to get to the tree stand?
    Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter

  8. #48
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Does anybody believe that "handicapped parking" tags and placards are only used by genuinely handicapped people, or are they like VIP parking passes these days?
    Good rant. Your right about a few things. You know nothing about my situation. If you do some research on me, it's not tough to figure that out.

    In addition, and you may find this offensive...as I would have found it offensive before I became ill and was diagnosed with my disease, you are actually clueless about how a disability effects the daily life of any individual.

    I know this from personal experience. Until I was age 45 I was a normal healthy male who looked at a lot of disabled individuals with a jaundice eye. Man, did I ever receive a wake up call.

    And quite frankly, that is, I believe, most of the prejudiced that I come up against today. It's simply a "not understanding" the effect of the disability on my everyday life. If you look at me, I may look fine. But there is a battle that is raging in my body every day. My joints are in pain every day. EVERY DAY!! I don't know if you can even comprehend that. And no, there is no medication that can stop it. Yes, there are some that can help subdue it, but there is a price to pay in other ways for that. There is always a compromise for it. ALWAYS. Look, I can go on about it....but what's the "ecopoint?

    I actually laughed out loud about your HC parking. Do you know that on the Pa. Turnpike.....I can't recall which rest stop it is....but it's before Breezwood coming from Pittsburgh, the Turnpike Commission actually removed about 7 HC parking spots and now they are for "electric or low fuel use vehicles only"!! So, if your in tip-top shape, you get to park right up front because you bought a "eco-friendly" car. If your HC....you get to gimp along farther.

    Reason #1,908 to dump the turnpike commission.

    There are times when I feel good and don't use the HC parking spot. There are times when I feel like crap and do use them. There are people who abuse them. There are people in all walks of life who abuse anything they can just because they can. Tossing stones is easy.

    Throwing out a guy because he is disabled is criminal. It's low. It's despicable. Ask your Mother if she thinks it's just fine to do so. If she tells you "yes" then you probably are in a very small group of people.

    BTW, If you read any of the Title III ADA law you will discover that it's not the organizations job to be the "judge" of what I can or cannot do. Why..."Dave" may roll that cart over and die. Yeah, well "GunLawyer" may just have a heart attack (have you seen the size of his belly hangin over his belt?) climbing that hill!! We need to tell GunLawyer he is no longer permitted to hunt here. He's way too fat and out of shape!! Beside's, he's over 40 and people die when they get over 40!!!

    I've heard it all....and it's all a boat load of cow fertilizer.

    Dave
    Last edited by DavidTM; November 28th, 2012 at 08:36 PM.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by cdi View Post
    It may be exactly as you say. I don't know you or the extent to which you are disabled. I do wonder though, if you shot one of the monster bucks the old cranks are protecting-
    how would you dress and drag it out if you need a motorized cart just to get to the tree stand?

    I can (still) sufficiently field dress a deer. I mean really, it's not all that difficult with the exception of the wind pipe too which I cut the throat and cut the wind pipe before I remove it.

    I have a winch on the back of my very highly modified electric golf cart to which I attach the deer's head...winch it up on the carts rear platform (you know where on a regular golf cart, the bottom of the golf bag would sit), then I tie the head on, then winch the hind quarter on in the same manner....and it's home we go. The winching on part is done in under 5 minutes. If I have a hunting buddy with me, it's even shorter than that.

    Oh yeah, taking breaks is an essential part of any field dressing activity. Believe me!! My back cannot take a long time period of this. And btw, if you tie one leg to a tree, and winch the other...the job is way easier that way.

    Thinking takes over when the body can't "just do."

    Oh....BTW, the last 5 bucks I've killed with a bow (this year I had to go to a crossbow as my left arm just won't let me hold it long enough on target anymore) were from the ground. Treestands are for sissy's. Kill 'em like a man....do it from the ground lookin 'em in the eye!!!

    Dave
    Last edited by DavidTM; November 28th, 2012 at 08:38 PM.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidTM View Post
    Good rant. Your right about a few things. You know nothing about my situation. If you do some research on me, it's not tough to figure that out. . . .
    What I can tell so far is that you entirely missed my point about governmental mandates on private entities.

    That's OK. You are entitled to be entirely obsessed about yourself, that's arguably your job, and the job of everyone to look after his own interests. But that hardly means that govt imposing burdens on others for your benefit is a pure good, because from THEIR point of view they have to shoulder additional burdens without receiving any benefit. That's involuntary servitude, which is bad in a small degree or a large degree. Ask your friends how they'd feel about "just being slaves 1 day of the year", see if "a little involuntary servitude" is acceptable. Hey, suggest it to your black friends, see how they react.

    I would appreciate it if you would leave my family out of future discussions, because you know even less about them than I care about your personal situation. You made this about you and your former gun club, so for you to take personal offense when anyone discusses the subject that you raised is absurd. I was mostly discussing the general principle, none of that hinges on what's wrong with you. if you can't handle such a discussion, you might want to steer clear of them in the future.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

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