Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #31
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    However, under present PA law - posting your land will cause the landowner to lose civil liability protections.
    I don't know where your getting this from.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidTM View Post
    I don't know where your getting this from.
    The Recreational Use of Land and Water Act - a little known law that awards land owners limits on liability for accidents and such who allow their land to be used for recreational purposes.

    http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/brc/RUWL...tFinalFpdf.pdf
    Last edited by knight0334; November 26th, 2012 at 02:49 PM.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  3. #33
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidTM View Post
    No. I take exception to this statement and your analogy. Especially from someone who knows the laws concerning trespassing and the historical roots of why they are what they are.

    Typically, hunters know who own the land and will ask for permission to hunt it. Of course, there are always exceptions to this.

    OTOH, should you purchase land in a rural setting you should know, or should find out that you do have responsibilities that come with the land. Yes, the burden of land ownership. I've said it before...if you can't handle the burden....sell the land and buy a CD at the bank.

    Should a hunter "stray" onto your unposted land, simply ask him to leave. I've done this "stray" part before. I've been met by angry landowners, and pleasant landowners. Both of which have ask me to leave. I've ask both for corrections of my course as there were no obvious boundaries, and once I was given them, I was off. It didn't matter to me if the landowner was red faced or pleasant. I treat both with respect, and calmly. I don't get worked up over dirt.

    Lots of places to hunt fellows. If a guy doesn't want you there, then just go where you are welcome. It takes some work, but you will find those places.

    But, a land owner has responsibilities. That's the law. If you don't like it....lobby for change. Until then, ask the trespasser to leave. If he doesn't, then he's subject to criminal trespass. Seems simple enough to me.

    Dave
    Your response is a non-sequitur. I noted the similarities in "entitlement" mindset between urban folks who demand your money, and rural folks who demand the use of your land; your response is that you're polite and a pleasant fellow.

    Now, I have no reason to doubt that you're polite and a pleasant fellow, but that hardly addresses the notion that an area's local hunters feel entitled to use the lands of others for personal gain. And that it's hard to find a bright-line difference between them and multi-generational Welfare parasites, with respect to the narrow issue I discussed.

    Yes, I'm aware of the laws, I know about posting land. I also know that illiterate crack whores with 6 bastard children are entitled to free stuff, under the laws. Doesn't make it right, just legal.

    If it helps, I feel the same way about mandatory sidewalks. I gain little to zero benefit from the sidewalks abutting my property, yet I am required to maintain them, shovel them, keep an eye out for damage, and I have no right to eject anyone loitering on them. It's an unfunded mandate, involuntary servitude, where the govt issues an edict that I must provide a benefit to strangers without compensation. Saying "it's a part of owning land" is no more of a justification that "white man's burden" or "the lot of a woman is hard, get used to it and shut up."
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    The Recreational Use of Land and Water Act - a little known law that awards land owners limits on liability for accidents and such who allow their land to be used for recreational purposes.

    http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/brc/RUWL...tFinalFpdf.pdf
    Interesting, I was unaware of this. However, if you DON'T allow recreational users, then isn't the duty you owe to people using your land WITHOUT your permission downgraded to the low level of care that you owe trespassers?

    It seems a little like the Good Samaritan laws. You don't get any extra benefit from helping accident victims, the law just shields you from liability for that act that you didn't have to do.

    It's good so far as it goes, but it doesn't seem to affect anything else, it just says that if you allow strangers onto your land, then those strangers can't sue for certain things (but they can still sue for others, or they can ALLEGE that you intentionally put holes into the ground.

    How would this affect a hunter who wanders into your non-posted property without your knowledge, and falls into the foundation of the building you're having constructed? How would that be different if he was trespassing and it was posted against hunting?
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Interesting, I was unaware of this. However, if you DON'T allow recreational users, then isn't the duty you owe to people using your land WITHOUT your permission downgraded to the low level of care that you owe trespassers?

    It seems a little like the Good Samaritan laws. You don't get any extra benefit from helping accident victims, the law just shields you from liability for that act that you didn't have to do.

    It's good so far as it goes, but it doesn't seem to affect anything else, it just says that if you allow strangers onto your land, then those strangers can't sue for certain things (but they can still sue for others, or they can ALLEGE that you intentionally put holes into the ground.

    How would this affect a hunter who wanders into your non-posted property without your knowledge, and falls into the foundation of the building you're having constructed? How would that be different if he was trespassing and it was posted against hunting?


    I don't remember all of the details because courts have made several different rulings. I don't think the act requires direct permission, just use of that open fields type doctrine for sporting/recreational use(cant remember the caselaw for unposted rural lands).

    My family got "schooled" on that act many years ago when some nitwits decided to get themselves killed on one of our fence posts while riding a snowmobile. Their next of kin tried to sue my family, however fortunately for us we forgot to post our lands that year and it was tossed. The judge said that had we posted like we normally had done years prior the suite would have proceeded. ...since then we haven't posted our farm land.

    From what I understand with current case law, known hazards have to be fixed, clearly marked, or isolated. ...like a sturdy cap placed over wells, fences intended to keep people out of places around unsafe areas, etc, etc. As I'm sure you're aware of, each incident is a case of its own in a common law court system.. One court my find fault with the house builder, another may side with the recreational act limitations.
    Last edited by knight0334; November 26th, 2012 at 03:20 PM.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  6. #36
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post

    Yes, I'm aware of the laws, I know about posting land. I also know that illiterate crack whores with 6 bastard children are entitled to free stuff, under the laws. Doesn't make it right, just legal.
    Well now, that example is non-sequitur. But, we are getting nowhere fast this way. The Pa posting laws are what they are. Land owners have certain responsibilities and, as apparent by many of the post on this and other forums, the landowners don't like them.

    That's understandable, but....complaining about 'em here really doesn't do much. Contact your State Rep. (Doubtful that will do much either....but....)

  7. #37
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    I found this to be helpful

    http://law.psu.edu/_file/aglaw/Lando...Land_Users.pdf

    It would seem that on posted land you don't owe anything thing more than you do to any other trespasser. However, this is an interesting bit of the article in reference to the RULWA
    In addition to liability for physical injuries, there are other areas of liability related to the
    recreational use of land that landowners should be aware of. For example, the Americans
    with Disabilities Act, which became law on July 26, 1990, prohibits private entities from
    discriminating against an individual on the basis of his or her disability.
    15
    In the land use
    context, this would mean that a landowner who holds his land open to use by the public may
    face a liability action at some point if he fails to provide appropriate access to his land for
    people with various disabilities.
    You may also want to look up the Friedman vs. Grand Central Sanitation judgement the PA Supreme Court did in 1990. It holds that the immunity granted in the act applies to recreational use of land even if the user of the land was there without permission. In that particular case, the land was posted, the company had security guards, and usually prosecuted those they found trespassing. The court decided that the the language in the act gave protection to all owners of recreational land but made special mention of those who invite the public in since there has historically been a difference in liability between those who are invited and those who are not.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by nater99 View Post
    In addition to liability for physical injuries, there are other areas of liability related to the
    recreational use of land that landowners should be aware of. For example, the Americans
    with Disabilities Act, which became law on July 26, 1990, prohibits private entities from
    discriminating against an individual on the basis of his or her disability.
    15
    In the land use
    context, this would mean that a landowner who holds his land open to use by the public may
    face a liability action at some point if he fails to provide appropriate access to his land for
    people with various disabilities.
    I know this is hi-jacking this thread somewhat, but just a few comments to what you have stated concerning the reference to ADA above:

    1) First off, I was tossed out of a Club (A gun club who is a member of the Allegheny County Sportsman's league) because of my disability. The Club did not (as they have done to every other member they have either disciplined or tossed out) grant me a "hearing" as required by the Club's by-laws. Why? Because they had no valid reason to throw me out.

    2) What did I do? I requested to use an electric modified cart in order to traverse Club property so that I could access the places where the deer actually were. However, I requested this under the provisions of the ADA.

    3) Why did the Club toss me out? Good question. I never received an answer to that.

    4) Can I sue them privately? Yes. Will I? There's still time.

    5) What have I done? Filed a complaint with the NRA (To which that organization has tossed me under the bus) and with the Federal Department of Justice (To which a decision is still pending)

    6) The Club is claiming ADA does not apply as they are a "private Club." I am stating it's pretty clear that since the Club holds events such as gun bashes on the property every year, and thus promotes economic trade and activity, they have removed themselves from this exemption. This is also backed up by two separate IRS memorandums.

    7) OTOH....who wants to belong to a Club that throws out disabled individuals because they are disabled? OTOH, who wants to belong to a Club that is proud to throw out disabled individuals because they are disabled? Well, as long as the members keep it hush-hush, "it's all good."

    Dave

  9. #39
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidTM View Post
    I know this is hi-jacking this thread somewhat, but just a few comments to what you have stated concerning the reference to ADA above:

    1) First off, I was tossed out of a Club (A gun club who is a member of the Allegheny County Sportsman's league) because of my disability. The Club did not (as they have done to every other member they have either disciplined or tossed out) grant me a "hearing" as required by the Club's by-laws. Why? Because they had no valid reason to throw me out.

    2) What did I do? I requested to use an electric modified cart in order to traverse Club property so that I could access the places where the deer actually were. However, I requested this under the provisions of the ADA.

    3) Why did the Club toss me out? Good question. I never received an answer to that.

    4) Can I sue them privately? Yes. Will I? There's still time.

    5) What have I done? Filed a complaint with the NRA (To which that organization has tossed me under the bus) and with the Federal Department of Justice (To which a decision is still pending)

    6) The Club is claiming ADA does not apply as they are a "private Club." I am stating it's pretty clear that since the Club holds events such as gun bashes on the property every year, and thus promotes economic trade and activity, they have removed themselves from this exemption. This is also backed up by two separate IRS memorandums.

    7) OTOH....who wants to belong to a Club that throws out disabled individuals because they are disabled? OTOH, who wants to belong to a Club that is proud to throw out disabled individuals because they are disabled? Well, as long as the members keep it hush-hush, "it's all good."

    Dave
    That's ridiculous especially considering it doesn't seem as though the club needed to do anything other than to allow you to use your own equipment. I'm sorry to hear about this, but glad you are fighting it.

    As far as what I posted, I hope the writer of the essay was being overly cautious. Otherwise the implications could actually discourage people from opening up their land to use. It depends on how discrimination is defined. A landowner should face a suite if they deny a person access because of a disability or refuses to allow them to use a device needed to make access possible (as in your example). To me that is discrimination. However, is it discrimination if a landowner does not care for or modify his land in such a way that it is accessible to all? For example, my family owns some land that contains trails that we use for both hiking and riding atv's. If we open those trails up to public use (which won't happen, but hypothetically) would we be discriminating since these trails are not wheelchair accessible? If that is the case, it's a ridiculous interpretation of the law and should make people think twice about opening their land for use.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: PA trespassing laws

    Well, what the ADA states is that "reasonable accommodations" need to be made. So, the next step is....what exactly are these "reasonable accommodations"?

    In my specific case all I was asking for was use. I needed nothing else. I needed no special unloading ramp, no special graded trail, no special anything. I just wanted to be allowed to use my own cart on the land. And the cart was designed to be used on trails at low speed (top speed 7mph) had posi-traction, was electric so no other hunter would be disturbed, and had turf tires so no damage to any planted fields would be damaged.

    In the case of wheelchairs, "reasonable accommodations" could and should be considered enough that a chair built to traverse the woods and existing trails would be "reasonable." No extraordinary expenditures would be required to make "reasonable accommodations." In other words....no one is asking you to spend enough dollars to make cliff climbing do-able for the disabled. That would be "unreasonable."

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