long range project ... building a bolt action rifle

[mojo]

So I'm starting to plan a long range project and looking for suggestions.

Bolded because it's a little play on words. This is a project that I don't really plan on start for a good 4 months or so, so it's a long range project on that side.

I would like to have a bolt rifle for long range shooting (~1000yrds). This is going to be a learning rifle because I really don't shoot further out than 200 yrds. I will also use this for hunting from time to time. Probably hogs and deer.

So here is what I'm thinking about. I am planning on using 7mm-08 ... unless there is significant reason that I shouldn't.

I originally thought about buying a complete Remmy 700 and doing some upgrades. However, lately I've been kicking around the idea of buying all the parts separately and building it up. I really don't have experience doing this, so if I go this route I will use it a learning experience to learn more about the gun and to have fun with it. Plus, I can get everything that I want from the beginning. Some logic I used to talk myself into putting together an AR. Now, I know that I would have to send it to a gunsmith for some of this, which is fine.

So ... the big question is should I buy a complete rifle and upgrade it or buy the pieces?

[TXDMERC73]

So I'm starting to plan a long range project and looking for suggestions.

Bolded because it's a little play on words. This is a project that I don't really plan on start for a good 4 months or so, so it's a long range project on that side.

I would like to have a bolt rifle for long range shooting (~1000yrds). This is going to be a learning rifle because I really don't shoot further out than 200 yrds. I will also use this for hunting from time to time. Probably hogs and deer.

So here is what I'm thinking about. I am planning on using 7mm-08 ... unless there is significant reason that I shouldn't.

I originally thought about buying a complete Remmy 700 and doing some upgrades. However, lately I've been kicking around the idea of buying all the parts separately and building it up. I really don't have experience doing this, so if I go this route I will use it a learning experience to learn more about the gun and to have fun with it. Plus, I can get everything that I want from the beginning. Some logic I used to talk myself into putting together an AR. Now, I know that I would have to send it to a gunsmith for some of this, which is fine.

So ... the big question is should I buy a complete rifle and upgrade it or buy the pieces?

seriously your using a 7mm-08 for 1000 yards, and 200 yards to kill deer and hogs? i would suggest at least a .338 lapua magnum for that distance and have decent energy that way you wont have to aim 2 feet from the target. i used to have a .243 WSSM model 70 i had to aim higher to hit 300 yards i figure a 7mm-08 isnt that much faster then a .243 WSSM . i shot a .338 Lapua i didn teven have to aim higher then 9 inches at 300 yards. i sold my .243 WSSM cuz i dont think its good enough for long ranges i will probably get a 7mm REM Magnum or a .300 win mag for hunting this year. i want a .338 Lapua but i dont want to have to carry a heavy rifle around hunting i need one for hunting and long range both. heres a chart for the .300 mag at 600 yards.

http://www.larrywillis.com/trajectory.html

[mojo]

seriously your using a 7mm-08 for 1000 yards, and 200 yards to kill deer and hogs? i would suggest at least a .338 lapua magnum for that distance and have decent energy that way you wont have to aim 2 feet from the target. i used to have a .243 WSSM model 70 i had to aim higher to hit 300 yards i figure a 7mm-08 isnt that much faster then a .243 WSSM . i shot a .338 Lapua i didn teven have to aim higher then 9 inches at 300 yards. i sold my .243 WSSM cuz i dont think its good enough for long ranges i will probably get a 7mm REM Magnum or a .300 win mag for hunting this year.

Let me clarify a little. I really don't plan on shooting a deer at 1000 yrds. 1000 yrds = targets, deer = 300 yrds. I don't have any hunting places that I could shoot a deer at 1000 yrds. Hogs ... I might be able to get out to 500 yrds or so.

I think the .338 lapua is to much for me for a learning rifle. In my mind, I want something that will move a little more in wind and what not ... forcing me to really work on details. Not sure if that makes sense or not.

From what I've read ... the 7mm-08 has as good if not better ballistics than a .308 and people shot the .308 out to 1000 yrds all the time.

[TXDMERC73]

sure ok just tryin to help ya ,my old man used to use the 7mm REM MAG he bagged a couple nice big bucks out to 200 yards or more . the farther you aim the bigger the buck you will find my old man said the bigger the buck the better they can smell you ,so its best to shoot em from far , with some serious firepower.

[Xringshooter]

mojo PM inbound.

[Tomcat088]

seriously your using a 7mm-08 for 1000 yards, and 200 yards to kill deer and hogs? i would suggest at least a .338 lapua magnum for that distance and have decent energy that way you wont have to aim 2 feet from the target. i used to have a .243 WSSM model 70 i had to aim higher to hit 300 yards i figure a 7mm-08 isnt that much faster then a .243 WSSM . i shot a .338 Lapua i didn teven have to aim higher then 9 inches at 300 yards. i sold my .243 WSSM cuz i dont think its good enough for long ranges i will probably get a 7mm REM Magnum or a .300 win mag for hunting this year. i want a .338 Lapua but i dont want to have to carry a heavy rifle around hunting i need one for hunting and long range both. heres a chart for the .300 mag at 600 yards.

http://www.larrywillis.com/trajectory.html

First off TXDMERC, I don't quite know what you're talking about here, but some of the things you've said make me question your knowledge on the subject. If you really don't know much about the subject, please refrain from making recommendations to someone who is serious and wanting to spend money based on the recommendations he receives here. First off, the 7mm-08 doesn't shoot flatter than the .243, they have the same parent case, but the 7mm-08 is shooting heavier bullets, so obviously it's not going to shoot ANY flatter than the .243.

The .338 is NOT a good cartridge to learn to shoot long range on, and WAY more than necessary punch for even a hog at 1,000 yards. I don't know of ANY .243 or .243 WSSM that you would have to aim 2 feet above the target to hit it. From a 100 yard zero, you shouldn't even have to aim a foot over the target to get a hit at 300 yards from a 100 yard zero. You shouldn't have to aim more than 9" over a target with a 100 yard zero, to make a hit at 300 yards. There are lots of competition and 6BR shooters that take the .243 (6mm) out to 1,000 yards. I don't know exactly what you define as "good" to 1,000 yards, but if you don't have the right shooter behind the rifle, no caliber is going to be good for 1,000 yards.

The 7mm Mag and ,300 winmag are both good long range cartridges, but also not the best to LEARN on. It sounds to me like you're parroting plenty, and don't quite have all the information to back up some of what you're saying. It would probably be best for everybody if you'd just listen to others recommendations if you don't actually KNOW. There are some people here that DO have experience to shooting these distances, and with the ballistics involved in those kinds of distances.

P.S. There are some of us here that have kills over 500 yards on animals, and some of us that have kills past 800 yards on animals. So we also know a little bit about bagging animals from a distance. Having the wind in your face usually helps a lot more with killing bucks than being able to accurately shoot 500 yards or more.

[Tomcat088]

So I'm starting to plan a long range project and looking for suggestions.

Bolded because it's a little play on words. This is a project that I don't really plan on start for a good 4 months or so, so it's a long range project on that side.

I would like to have a bolt rifle for long range shooting (~1000yrds). This is going to be a learning rifle because I really don't shoot further out than 200 yrds. I will also use this for hunting from time to time. Probably hogs and deer.

So here is what I'm thinking about. I am planning on using 7mm-08 ... unless there is significant reason that I shouldn't.

I originally thought about buying a complete Remmy 700 and doing some upgrades. However, lately I've been kicking around the idea of buying all the parts separately and building it up. I really don't have experience doing this, so if I go this route I will use it a learning experience to learn more about the gun and to have fun with it. Plus, I can get everything that I want from the beginning. Some logic I used to talk myself into putting together an AR. Now, I know that I would have to send it to a gunsmith for some of this, which is fine.

So ... the big question is should I buy a complete rifle and upgrade it or buy the pieces?

The first thing I'd like to say is that I will NEVER fight with your choice of the 7mm-08. If I had to choose between a .308 and 7mm-08 for long range shooting, I'd take the 7mm-08 EVERY SINGLE TIME. The 7-08 does have better ballistics than the .308, and in the high BC bullets that they will shoot best, the 7mm-08 will outperform the .308 with wind drift by a fair amount too. I would look hard at the 168 grain and 180 grain VLD bullets from the 7mm-08, especially the 168 VLD. Lots of people will talk about shooting a 168 grain Sierra Match King from the .308 as THE load. Well the 168 SMK has a BC of .462. The 7mm Berger VLD's will have BC's as follows, for the 169 grain VLD .617, and for the 180 VLD a G1 of .659. You could fire a 169 VLD from the 7mm as fast or as the 168 SMK from the .308, but the 7mm-08 will have a fair bit less wind drift and drop. So people will say, well compare the bullets to something that the .308 shoots flatter and is a top contender in matches; that bullet being the 155 grain Lapua Scenar. Well the 155 Scenar has a BC of .508, although it would have less drop than the 168 SMK from the .308. Because the BC's are so different between the 7mm 168 VLD and the 155 Scenar in .308, they'd probably be pretty close in terms of drop, because the 155 could be pushed a bit faster, but it would still have more wind drift, and probably more drop the longer the range got, it would be close. If you're not going to handload, that might be the only reason that you'd want to choose the .308 because there's so many match grade loadings. Either way, there's not ANY reason to choose the .308 over the 7mm-08 if you're handloading. In my next post, I'm going to try to make a bit of a post about prices, and the result may push you away from the 7mm-08. I just wanted this post to pertain specifically to the caliber, and that it works well; in my opinion better than the .308, for long range shooting.

[Tomcat088]

I'm going to try to do a bit of a cost analysis of all of this. Keep in mind with the custom rifle, I'm going to be pretty liberal in my price. This means that it is the BARE MINIMUM you MIGHT be able to spend to do this rifle. For these kind of prices, I probably still might not do it because it would be considered "half ass" by someone like me. We're talking about an action that isn't fully blue printed, etc.

What kind of budget do you intend to have for this rifle? When you start talking about having a gunsmith change some things up and modify things, the price QUICKLY goes up on a rifle. If you chose to buy a Remington 700 and upgrade, let's look at it. The cheapest way you will do it is buying an older used rifle, that you MIGHT acquire for between $350-400. So then you want to put a match grade barrel on it. So let's say you spend around $300 dollars for a barrel from Shilen, Krieger, Rock, Barlein, Obermeyer, or someone like that. If you wanted it fluted, expect closer to $400. So now you have a barrel blank that you need to get threaded, crowned, reemed, and headspaced to your bolt. You can look at the gunsmith fees to be between $150-200 if you're shopping around. Many smiths aren't gonna ream and chamber a barrel unless they can square up the receiver and lugs, so if this is the case, then you're looking at probably another $100 minimum just to face everything up, not a full blue print. If you sent off the barrel and action to GAP, they'll chamber, thread and crown the barrel, and true the action and bolt for $350, but you'll also be paying shipping. That's maybe one way that you want to do it. So now you have the barrel and action together, and still have a factory lug that's not pinned. So maybe you want a different lug and you want it pinned, probably $60-75. So now you still need a stock. Well, on this the cheap route is to go with something like a Bell & Carlson on the cheap side, so let's say you get the A2 stock and it costs $200. You also have options to spend around $600 or more on an McMillan. If you want a McMillan to be Pillar bedded and skim bedded (it really should be), expect to spend another $200 on the McMillan. If you go with the cheaper stock, you have a stock, but it still needs to be skim bedded to make it reliable. So say it costs you $60-$75 to get bedded. So now you want a trigger besides the piece of crap x-mark that comes with many rifles today. Let's say you spend around $100 for a Timney, Shilen, or Rifle Basix trigger, with shipping. Now let's see what it cost if you went the "cheap" route to put this rifle together.

So I took everything I told you at the "cheapest" prices I've told you for a bare minimum rifle. We're saying used action $350, barrel at $300, $150 to chamber crown and thread barrel (shouldn't just be done this way), $200 Bell & Carlson stock, $60 to bed it (very cheap), $100 for cheaper aftermarket trigger (not a jewell). IF you could get a rifle done for this (which you probably won't), it'll cost you $1220. This will put you with a rifle that still doesn't have the face squared up and the barrel may or may not fit as good as it should since the threads weren't cleaned up and the receiver wasn't faced. You won't even have a "speed lock" system in the firing pin. So you just spent $1220 for a rifle that has a decent stock, will shoot alright and be reliable, but you still now need rings, scope, etc. The rifle also still has a bone stock bolt handle (not the cool tactical handle); BUT you will have a nice custom barrel (but it probably shoots WAY better than you are capable of because the factory one probably did).

Let's say that you weren't limiting your options to 7mm-08. Let's say you considered a Remington 700P or 700 LTR. You can find one for around $850 if you look around, let's say you maybe can't find one for but maybe $950. So you still have $1220- (950 + 100 for custom trigger)= 170 saved. Let's say that instead of a 700P or LTR, you looked at a Remington 700 5R. You can also get a Remington 700 5R for around $900 or a bit more, although the rifle will be all stainless, and chambered for also .308. There are some new chamberings, but that's gonna be the one that is cheapest to shoot (besides .223), the others are .300 win mag, etc. What it cracks down to is that you'd have a comparable stocks (HS Precision), you'd have a slightly better barrel on the custom. Now keep in mind these numbers are with my VERY conservative estimates on building a custom, in reality you're probably gonna spend closer to $1500 for what I've told you IF you start out with a USED older rifle. If you had to buy a newer rifle (think $650 or so), then you're looking at around $1750 or a bit more, AND you STILL NEED TO BUY A SCOPE AND RINGS.

If you don't already reload, you're going to have to buy all your supplies, a press, dies, etc. That's another expensive project on it's own. This is a LOT of money to shell out to get STARTED in the game. Keep in mind this ISN'T for a rifle that has a McMillan stock, DOESN'T have a sling, DOESN'T have DM (detachable magazine), DOESN'T have a bipod, DOESN'T have a speed lock system, it's nothing fancy at all, and probably isn't necessarily gonna shoot better for you either. The match grade barrel is nice and will foul a bit less, but until you have learned to shoot accurately, it's not going to necessarily shoot that much better than the factory barrel. When you total up what it's gonna cost to throw a bipod, sling, get a cheap case, and scope on a rifle that cost around $1500 (more realistic); you're gonna be near the $1750 or MORE range. This is for a CHEAP custom set up without any fancy options (bare minimum). Is it within your budget to plop down right near $2,250 to get started in the game? That's considering that you already reload.

The other option that you have is to go with a stock rifle, something like say a Remington 700 SPS Varmint, or I'd probably recommend something like the Remington 700 SPS Tactical. You can get a Remington 700 SPS Tactical for near $600, but let's say that you had to spend $700. They have a bit of a flimsy stock, especially if you want to slap a bipod on it. So let's say you spend $200 for a Bell & Carlson A2 stock, so you're at the $900 price range. So you throw a $100-120 Harris bipod with swivel, and you have a base rifle without a sling strap, on a Bell & Carlson stock (which is plenty tough and rigid), for $1,020. So let's say you throw a $500 scope of your choice on the rifle, and you're at around $1,520 for a rifle that you can be shooting with AS IS. If we did throw in a cheap $40 case (same as I figured for the last rifle), and let's say you wanted a nice trigger on it for $100 (Shilen, Timney, etc). That would put you at $1660 or so, for a rifle that has a nice trigger, glass, case, and everything. You don't really have a stock rifle, you basically have a rifle that can still shoot better than you can, you have the same stock as the other custom rifle, and the same trigger. You would be stuck with a .308, instead of the other caliber of your choice. You'd have the same case, same bipod, everything. The main difference here is that you would have a factory tube, as opposed to a custom one, BUT you'd have saved roughly ($2250-1660) = 590 dollars. This is enough that if you're not in the reloading game, this is enough to get a press, quality dies, quality components, etc, and get into that game which will allow you to shoot more. If you're not in the reloading game, the most expensive part of learning to LR shoot is the ammo. If you're having to buy quality ammunition like blackhills or FGMM, it's gonna be very expensive to shoot as much as you need to to learn. FGMM is about $1.85 a round, and black hills (which will work) cost about $1.45 a round. It'll take you over 1,000 rounds to learn how to shoot long range, even if you're making every one count and keeping a good log book. So we're talking about spending more in ammunition than you have for your rifle, to learn how to shoot long range. NOW, if you were reloading, let's assume you already have your setup, and the sheer cost of reloading a round. You will actually be able to load your first round with better bullets than the factory ammunition for less than $1 a round. The second reloading will probably be closer to $.60, and that's about how they will be until you wear out your brass. Running reasonable reloads, you'll be able to get at least 7 or 8 reloads out of your .308 brass (most likely quite a bit more). So when you weigh in that kind of factor, you'll be able to practice at least 3 or 4 times as much (maybe more), for the same amount of money than if you have to buy factory ammunition. You learn from shooting more, so if you're not in the reloading game, it would be VERY smart to go with a rifle that isn't quite the "best", but so that you can get your rifle and into the reloading game and be able to tune a load to your rifle and practice.

Well let's already say that you're in the reloading game, and you just saved $590 for going with an SPS Tactical in a Bell & Carlson and nice trigger, instead of a full custom. So if you're already in the reloading game, then you have basically $600 extra dollars in your pocket. So what if instead of spending $500 on a scope, you were able to spend $1100 on a scope (combine the $600 extra that you had). Well this means instead of putting a Super Sniper on your scope, you now are able to put maybe a Leupold Mark 4 on your rifle, and you'd end up at the same place as having a custom rifle with a Super Sniper scope on it. You can go the route that you want, but I would probably advise you to go with a stock rifle that is quality (not garbage), that maybe you customize a little. You can make the factory rifle shoot better than you can if you make a good reload. It'll serve you a lot better to shoot a LOT, than it will to have a tricked out rifle that you can only afford to shoot sometimes. By the time you finally shoot out the factory barrel (over 2,500 rounds), you'll be able to shoot. You'll also have a pretty good idea of what you want to do different on your next setup. THEN you will need a new barrel, and you will actually be able to harnass the accuracy potential of that custom barrel. You already have an action to work with, and you already have an awesome scope. So now all you end up having to do is rebarrel the action (in 7mm-08 or even .260 if you want). So let's say it costs you $300 in barrel, $350 to have the action trued up and the barrel chambered, threaded and crowned. So you just spend $650 more, but now you have a rifle that has a custom barrel that you can actually use, with a Leupold Mark 4, and the same stock and other accessories that you would have had earlier on the previous custom rifle. Either way, I wouldn't go full custom to begin with, because you probably don't exactly know what you want yet and you won't be able to make full ues of it anyway. That's just my take on it, some other people may disagree.

[mtntroll666]

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx
Try this link it has a good Ballistics Calculator.the more info you put in the more accurate it is.
Good luck
TROLL

[arrrrgh15]

So ... the big question is should I buy a complete rifle and upgrade it or buy the pieces?

What's your budget?

If it's limited I'd say pick up a rem700 purpose built such as the 700P or some damn thing like that (or equivalent savage) per Tomcats post.

If its not, have one built. Instead of collecting all the parts all you really need to do is pick up the phone and call one of the reputable LR gunsmiths (please research this as not all gunsmiths are created equal). Tell them what you want to do with the rifle and they'll hook you up. Keep in mind that it may take them a few months depending on backlog.

I won't get into a caliber debate here. And 338 LM is a bit rediculous. You don't need a 338LM to reach 1000 yards. Or a .50.

I think tomcat gave you some sage advice in there somewhere. I didn't read it all but judging from many of his previous posts, it's probably pretty good. And don't skimp out on the scope and mounts.

For what its worth I use my GA Precision built .308 for sniper comps AND for whitetail. At about 14 lbs it tends to get a tiny bit heavy after walking 6 miles through brush in the mountains. And considering that because of terrain and brush the furthest shot is about 100 yards, its not entirely necessary. A 30-30 would work better. Keep that in mind. Fluting might be a good idea.

Good luck with your build/buy.