Looking for suggestions for alternatives to preemptive gun legislation

[87th PVI]

Here in York we are fighting a proposed preemption violation (Lost & Stolen ordinance)

I was asked by one member of council if I'd like to sit down with her to discuss possible alternative solutions to our crime problem in the City.

This proposal was tabled in January & is being brought off the table for more debate & a vote in September.
This particular council member stated in January that she would have voted against the proposal and she also voted against tabling the measure, wanting instead to vote it down at that time.

I feel she is an ally to us but she could possibly be on the fence now that some time has passed and the council member who is pushing the legislation has had several months to "work on her."

She has asked me if I had any alternate ideas to address the crime & gangs without passing legislation that violates state law & is unconstitutional. When I told her that I did, she asked to meet with me and anyone else I want to bring along, to hear our ideas.

So I'm asking you as a group for positive input. What ideas do you have & Better yet, what has worked in your areas?

I'm also trying to work it so I can get some local teens to bring their ideas to the table with me. They know best what would keep them out of trouble & heading down the right path.
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Here are some of my rough ideas so far:

I'd like to see report cards on the Police & Prosecutors, and somehow hold them more accountable for catch & release cases & too much plea-bargaining.

City Council can’t make a police officer arrest someone or force prosecutors to file certain charges, or not drop others, but they can pass ordinances that force them to explain and justify their actions.

Report cards on judges concerning their sentencing records would be nice too.

Pass ordinances that address the gang culture, thereby adding charges just for affiliation with those groups. (unless that is somehow violating the first amendment???)

As for trying to keep kids from taking the wrong path in the first place:

I'd like to see a program that places kids in summer &/or after school jobs. Use some of that grant money to pay teens to clean up the neighborhood, paint over graffiti, etc. They would have more self-respect & respect for their neighborhood if they were keeping it looking good, and can make some money while they do it. Set up a program that pairs teens with seniors & have the city pay the teens to mow grass, trim trees, paint homes & fences, etc for seniors in their neighborhood. The seniors & kids would get to know one another better helping to create bonds and respect both ways.

Set up a kids anonymous tip line online or in phone texting format to report teen crimes. Possibly make it like a friends networking style site with an IM, e-mail or texting style tip line. Try to have a young adult on the receiving end so the kids feel comfortable using it. Allow them to feel like they are chatting with a friend about a concern or spreading gossip instead of reporting crimes.

For younger kids, city or donor sponsored field trips that can be fun and educational.
They could tour businesses, camp out with civil war or rev war reenactors, visit a farm, etc.
Working with the York County Heritage Trust to cosponsor more activities for inner city youth would be a good thing to look into as well.

Maybe parenting classes and support groups for all levels from parents of infant to parents of teens. Why do kids always say the gang is their family? Why aren’t the parents doing their job? Is there a way we can help them to ultimately help the community by raising respectful children who choose the right path

[RoyJackson]

Good post..it's 0500 as I type this, but I'll give some thought to this one during the day.
If you don'tmind me asking, which council member is this? PM me if you prefer.

I'm not in York City, but fairly close...

[c3prret]

Most laws that towns propose are useless, hold no legal weight due to premption and haven't proven anything. Not sure if ir would work but why not try something that is useless, no legal weight but has proven to work? With the side benefit of being pro gun.
Keenasaw, Ga passed a law years ago and seems like crime has dropped. Bill wouldn't hold any legal weight, would get attention from the media thereby promoting it andwill save court money for violation.
Just a thought.

[edstephan]

How about removal of all laws off the books that stop people from defending themselves, their families and property and promoting self-defence and self-responsability. Once the criminals / cowards see that people won't take it anymore they will move on to where they know their life won't be in danger like PRNJ

What about sponsoring classes in NRA first steps rifle, pistol, shotgun, NRA Refuse to be a victim, Defense in the home
Teaching firearm safety to the children in the schools



An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

[LittleRedToyota]

Pass ordinances that address the gang culture, thereby adding charges just for affiliation with those groups. (unless that is somehow violating the first amendment???)

imho, such laws are a violation of the right to free assembly. however, i know such laws have been passed in other places. i'm not really sure what the record is on them being upheld or overturned.

here is a discussion of the issue (which also discusses some alternatives which you might be interested in):

http://law.jrank.org/pages/7069/Gang...STITUTION.html

[ChamberedRound]

Another solution is to review all the existing laws on the books, and make them realize that for every instance where they would use the proposed legislation, there's likely already a law on the books that the suspect could be charged with. For example, a guy breaks into a house with a gun; instead of a gun charge, there's trespassing, breaking and entering, etc. Show enough of this, and the argument is that the solution she's seeking is to do NOTHING, because it's already been done. That criminals are ignoring the laws already on the books isn't logical justification to pass more laws they'll ignore. It does nothing more than to hamper the rights of the law-abiding.

Next, make sure to point out that her efforts are relatively futile, because she's supporting an ordinance which can't be legally enforced by the local government. Make sure she's aware that if the solicitor know anything of the law, his professional opinion will be that this is unenforceable. In addition, if this passes, it's only a matter of time before someone who did nothing wrong gets charged, and:

- The local prosecutor may not pursue those charges because they know they will likely not get a conviction
- If it does go to court and the charges on dropped, the defendant can pursue civil action against the town, against the individual council members for official oppression (for passing a law they knew violated preemption), and possibly even the aforementioned solicitor. All this translates into big money and big headaches.

Lastly, I know that hard numbers and statistics are a better way to bolster a point of view, but it doesn't hurt to briefly take a philosophical tack as well. ANY preemptive or proactive legislation, gun-related or not, is an anathema to the core foundation of our system of government. Our system is based on individual freedoms, and proactive legislation strips freedoms from the majority (the law-abiding) for the sake of the minority (the criminals), when such laws shouldn't strip freedoms from ANYONE.

Hope it helps. Keep us posted.

[87th PVI]

Good post..it's 0500 as I type this, but I'll give some thought to this one during the day.
If you don'tmind me asking, which council member is this? PM me if you prefer.

I'm not in York City, but fairly close...

Genevieve Ray.

Here is a thread that gives the whole story:
http://forum.pafoa.org/762276-post-123.html

Most laws that towns propose are useless, hold no legal weight due to premption and haven't proven anything. Not sure if ir would work but why not try something that is useless, no legal weight but has proven to work? With the side benefit of being pro gun.
Keenasaw, Ga passed a law years ago and seems like crime has dropped. Bill wouldn't hold any legal weight, would get attention from the media thereby promoting it andwill save court money for violation.
Just a thought.

You don't say what law that is you are speaking of but I'm assuming it's a everyone must own a firearm to live here law...
I've been saying for years that we need those in all towns. If someone can't live in a place unless they own a firearm, and they are prevented by law from owning a firearm due to a felony or mental instability... then the town has no felons or nuts & it's a much nicer place to live! Also everyone who hasn't committed a crime yet, but might in the future knows that if they are convicted of a felony, part of the punishment is permenant banishment from living there anymore. Pretty good incentive to stay on the right side of the law if you ask me. Much better than just a temporary stay in prison.

How about removal of all laws off the books that stop people from defending themselves, their families and property and promoting self-defence and self-responsability. Once the criminals / cowards see that people won't take it anymore they will move on to where they know their life won't be in danger like PRNJ

What about sponsoring classes in NRA first steps rifle, pistol, shotgun, NRA Refuse to be a victim, Defense in the home
Teaching firearm safety to the children in the schools



An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

WOW & here I've been thinking of Castle Doctrine as a state issue! Silly me! Maybe if we pass it on the local level everywhere It will send a message to the state & they'll have to act on it there! Oh yeah! Tasting one's own medicine approach! I love it!


I also like the other suggestions you list & will hadd them to my agenda! We had a whole thread not long ago on here about shooting teams in the schools.


Lastly, in reply to ChamberedRound...
We have done everything that you have suggested in your post. We have covered those bases in chambers on the record & it has been televised for all to view every time.
What I am looking for here is a different approach. One of here you go Councilwoman Ray... here are some ideas that you can introduce that will address the same problems that Councilwoman Smith is saying she is trying to address except these ideas are not illegal or unconstitutional, and could actually have some effect.

[Computer Steve]

What about sponsoring classes in NRA first steps rifle, pistol, shotgun, NRA Refuse to be a victim, Defense in the home
Teaching firearm safety to the children in the schools

A few of us suggested that at the meeting. We explained that education was the key to turning the tide on violent crime.

In response, a city resident, Joanne Borders approached the microphone and scolded council for considering such acts, since it would be training the kids to be killers. I'll get her moronic comments on youtube when I get a chance... but basically they just don't get it.

After Joanne Borders spoke, Councilwoman Smith told everyone that Ms Borders was speaking for the entire community, while our comments, you know, were just individuals. We begged to differ in that one voice is one voice.

This is an agenda driven, lock-step, liberal movement.

[Steelblitz]

What about sponsoring classes in NRA first steps rifle, pistol, shotgun, NRA Refuse to be a victim, Defense in the home
Teaching firearm safety to the children in the schools

That's what I was thinking of getting the NRA involved with the Eddie Eagle program for the youngins. Overall we are talking partly about a social problem in the cities where certain elements of the population turn to crime. Education is a step in prevention.

I'm a GOA member and I'm going to send a message to them and see if they offer any suggestions.

[TaePo]

Can a municipality institute a stand your ground law or no lawsuit for righteous defense shootings etc.? Or is that preempted as well?

Maybe get a "must own a gun" law like in Georgia (town in Ga.)?