Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Retention training opportunity

    my original OP

    I just finished a 3-day basic Tactical Pistol class with the http://www.fireinstitute.org/ .

    During this time I had a chance to speak with PeteG about retention training and OC.

    I have seen many classes that include retention training, but not many centered just on this topic.

    Pete said he would be willing to set up to do a one-day retention only class. We would need to put together 8 people at $100 a piece. That is a great opportunity at a great price for quality professional hands on force on force training. I will remind any readers of this now that the FIRE inst is a NON-profit. These 8 people will need to have some prior handgun training. I did not get the specifics of what training by whom and how many hours would be acceptable.

    I want this training.

    whos with me?
    now:

    Do you have $100 ?
    Can get to the PGH area AUG 23 ?
    Want to learn about weapon retention ?
    Plastic training gun ?

    JOIN US !
    Last edited by Shawn.L; June 22nd, 2009 at 07:34 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    It's a very good idea. Too far from me for a one-trick pony. I've been thinking about traveling for one of their more comprehensive classes, I think that will be included.

    I am going to get a lot of flak for this, especially in light of a recent thread on the issue. I think it is very unlikely somebody is going to try to grab my gun. That does NOT mean I have my head in the sand and my gun hanging from an apple tree.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    I'm interested.

    Can't commit until I get more details.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    Quote Originally Posted by Carnes View Post
    I'm interested.

    Can't commit until I get more details.
    Same here.

    Shawn ... great job in trying to get this setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    If the police could confiscate all of your guns and ammo using just one van, then you didn't own enough guns or ammo.
    WTB - NDS3 or NDS1 receiver FTF

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    Quote Originally Posted by mojo View Post
    Same here.

    Shawn ... great job in trying to get this setup.

    The PFDC and F.I.R.E. Institute have, over the years, scheduled a good many courses which included a lot of disarm and retention instruction, from some full-time, professional instructors , both nationally known and relatively unknown names of exceptional skill and knowledge. These guys were and are at the top of their profession. The majority of those have cancelled for lack of enrollment.

    This lack of serious interest is commonly - I would say universally - reported among schools and trainers. Private citizens who are spending "discretionary dollars" and their own time like to muse and wonder about this kind of training, but ultimately don't commit to it. Those of the top instructors I know (obviously I don't know all of them) don't even bother offering it to the general public, and stick to institutional consumers. Some will allow non-affiliated civilians to enroll in such courses, if the agency for whom the training is being given will permit "outsiders" to be present. The F.I.R.E. Institute schedules them by guaranteeing them a flat fee, and promising to handle all the enrollment and administration.

    I can show anyone how a disarm works, and walk anyone with at least average hand speed and strength through the process to the point where they can get fairly good at it - under controlled, training conditions. It really is pretty cool stuff. In fact, these disarms can border on the amazing. For this reason, doing a "unit" on disarms and retention instruction as part of a hand-gun or carbine course makes a great marketing tool for instructors (especially those who cater to the fantasies of those who want to believe they are prepared without actually doing much work). The parlance in the trade is "the party tricks."

    But preparation = work. Period. No way around it. As Clint Smith said decades ago, "you can't buy competence."

    For this reason, a class on disarms and/or retention technique is only useful IF the participants are organized, or are prepared to become organized, to practice the techniques after the course. Otherwise, although it is interesting and entertaining, a seminar on disarms and retention is not useful training.

    Be mindful that disarms and retention are techniques employed when a situation is very desperate. The same can be said for any firearms training, since the skills will come into play only if there is an imminent risk of serious bodily injury or death. But people can always imagine they will be using their firearm from a position of advantage, and closing or touching their assailant unnecessary. Disarms and retention techniques necessarily come into play when that foolish fantasy is dispelled. These are last-ditch, no-other-choice, dangerous-as-hell efforts to save oneself (or, in some cases, to save another). Therefore, while they are not particularly difficult to execute, these techniques do require the kind of facility and cool execution that only comes from a lot of practice.

    I will arrange demonstrations and explanations for anyone who is interested. I will undertake to train only those who have shown a willingness to spend some time and do some work learning about how to handle their firearm(s). Otherwise, it is a waste of everyone's time.

    I have not written a curriculum for a one-day course in disarms and retention, but I can easily do so. Prerequisites will include recent (meaning current) formal training with firearms (demonstrated on site and on demand), the purchase of suitable training guns, and a willingness to get bumped around and suffer some minor bruises. (One cannot teach this without touching the students, or the students touching each other.) If Shawn puts together a private group of at least 8, I will first ask the group what their objectives are, and, so long as I think the objectives are realistic and reasonable, I will tailor the course content accordingly.

    By the way, I did not see the other thread about "gun grabs," but it does happen all the time. I have two personal acquaintances who have suffered gun grabs this year alone, one of which wound up putting two people in the hospital. Carrying a gun (especially carrying openly) and believing one will never have to fight to retain that gun is no smarter and no more realistic than not carrying a gun in the belief that trouble only comes to "other people." It will happen at a time and in a place where one simply does not expect it, and the outcome will be dictated either by one's level of training, by dumb luck or by some combination of the two.

    When I see someone carrying openly I mentally asses is whether that person is prepared to keep that gun if someone wants to take it. More often than not, my assessment is "no." (Of course, when I know someone is carrying concealed I assess whether that person is prepared under the prevailing circumstances to competently present and fire that weapon, and my assessment is also more often than not "no," so maybe I'm just too cynical.)

    On another, related note, the F.I.R.E. Institute is planning to offer an "active response" class in the fall, which will involve lots of disarming and weapons retention (primarily with rifles and shotguns). Steve Tarani is the probable instructor. It will be 3 days in length, will have training prerequisites, and will require participants to invest in their own training guns in addition to their live weapons. Those who take courses so they can use all that gear will love this one; at the same time, those who think $385 is too much to pay for "Basic Tactical Pistol" will definitely not be interested.

    My suggestion would be that one attend a one-day class/seminar on disarms and retention, and assess for himself if this is something he is interested and able to pursue. I realize very few people will take my suggestion.
    Last edited by PeteG; June 1st, 2009 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Trying to make it clear enough that the trolls can't find anything to bitch or argue about. And spelling the word "their."

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteG View Post
    I have not written a curriculum for a one-day course in disarms and retention, but I can easily do so. Prerequsites will include recent (meaning current) formal training with firearms, the purchase of suitable training guns, and a willingness to get bumped around and suffer some minor bruises. (One cannot teach this without touching the students, or the students touching each other.) If Shawn puts together a private group of at least 8, I will first ask the group what their objectives are, and, so long as I think the objectives are realistic and reasonable, tailor the course content accordingly.
    1. Shawn.L
    2. Carnes
    3. Mojo
    4. LRT
    5. PennsyPlinker
    6.
    7.
    8.

    as far as curriculum is concerned I am mainly interested in training that would address retention in the holster, stopping a "gun-grab" from a possibly armed opponent at close range.

    I have my blue gun

    I am more than willing to practice
    Last edited by Shawn.L; June 1st, 2009 at 01:27 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    i would be interested if the timing works out.
    F*S=k

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    You may want to advertise your class to the LEO's as well. Most LEO that I have talked to have minimal retention training... Basically, "here's how to strip someone from your gun, practice now, etc..." Plus, most folks generally don't enjoy defensive tactics.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
    i would be interested if the timing works out.
    since the private group of 8 will be orginizing this with Pete I dont see why it wouldnt. I think this makes it very adventageous to many for whom scheduling is hard.

    Once we get the 8 of us together we can work out the details with Pete as to when/where so that it works out for all of us.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Retention training opportunity

    New Signature line

    Carrying a gun (especially carrying openly) and believing one will never have to fight to retain that gun is no smarter and no more realistic not carrying a gun in the belief that trouble only comes to other people.
    "Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like having a piano and thinking you are a musician" Col. Jeff Cooper (U.S.M.C. Ret.)
    Speed is fine, Accuracy is final


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