Airsoft for FoF training questions

[LittleRedToyota]

i am looking to start doing some FoF training with a couple other guys from PAFOA...they use airsoft guns in doing the FoF, so i need to get me an airsoft replica of my glock 17.

any suggestions for brand or source or any other comments insights would be greatly appreciated.

i would like it to be as close to the real thing as possible. i would really like the gun to work with my actual carry holster (comp-tac c-tac). i would like the trigger to be as close to the glock trigger as possible. i would like the gun to feel as close to the real thing as possible. the gun has to be rugged enough to use in FoF training.

but, i would really like to keep it under $200 at most.

i've done a bit of research and think i have concluded that:

- i want a gas gun (as opposed to spring or electric).
- i would ideally like one with a steel slide.
- KSC (is KWA the same company?) seems to be a pretty well respected maker of airsoft glock 17s
- HFC seems to get mixed reviews, but there is apparently a store in pittsburgh that stocks the HFCs so i could probably try one out for feel, trigger, etc.

any and all input/comments would be greatly appreciated. i am a complete airsoft newbie.

thanks.

[Wasz]

When I airsofted I played with people who used to hang out here

http://www.wpairsoft.com/forum/index.php

The best guy to talk to goes by Angus. I used to play with him a lot, we were buddies. He has his own business selling, building and repairing airsoft guns, he is a good guy and honest. I'd ask him before I bought anything, he'll know what makers are quality. I haven't done that stuff in a couple years so I'm not up on what makers are the best anymore.

Tell him Wasz sent ya.

[NineseveN]

From what Carnes found out, the KSC metal slide version is as close to a real Glock as the non-custom guns get. The problem is however, that due to lawsuit threats as I understand it, it's been discontinued (along with their other Glock copies similar to the metal slide G19/G17).

However, I found one for you from a site that some have dealt with on Glocktalk.com, I don't know much else about the company, but the gun you're probably looking for is in stock there (seems hard to find elsewhere).
http://airsoftglobal.com/product_inf...oducts_id=8702

I'll let Carnes fill you in on the specifics, he's already done the legwork on the Glocks.


I may order a magazine for my STI through that company if I can't find one in stock stateside...depends on the shipping though.

[son of the revolution]

Slightly off topic question here . While I totally agree with using AirSoft for FOF Training ( although Simunitions are the height of realism ) , I dont get the whole actually playing with them like paintball .

I came up just as paintball hit big in South Jersey in the late 80's/early 90's . I actually once worked for the guy that eventually became the owner of National Paintball Supply . That place started out as a storage closet in a pizza joint back in the day

Anyway , with paintball , even though the guns were obviously not even close to realistic looking , the "game " was . You KNEW when you were hit , you could hear and see rounds whipping past you ,etc . It just really seemed much more realistic game play wise .

Dont get me wrong , I love the ultra realism of the AirSoft stuff , Im just having trouble getting my head around how the " game play " could be as much fun since the range is drastically reduced , the impacts might often not even be felt thru a " Tac Vest " or other equipment , etc . I just couldnt see myself spending the kinda money on Airsoft that I have on paintball . But Im always open to new ideas .

[thatJeffguy]

Paintball > Airsoft.

Sure, my gun might not "look real", but it stings and shoots far.

And I've got a REALLY authentic looking SIG P229, but it doesn't shoot little plastic pebbles

[son of the revolution]

Paintball > Airsoft.

Sure, my gun might not "look real", but it stings and shoots far.

And I've got a REALLY authentic looking SIG P229, but it doesn't shoot little plastic pebbles

Then you'll love pics of my Spyder TL I've had for years ! The only thing left stock on it is the frame .

4x Scope

LaserAim Co witnessed Laser Sight /pressure pad taped to vert fore grip

Insight M3 Tactical Light riding a custom milled and attached Picatinny Rail off hand side

Armson 18" rifled barrel

Harris Bipod with ext legs on a custom hand made barrel mount and isolater pad/spacer.

DYE Grips

Bolt and Spring Kit

Constant Air 4500 psi tanks

Power Feed 300 round hopper


I'll try and get some pics up sometime soon , last time I tallied it up it was over 1200.00 invested I can buy an Angel for that price !

[NineseveN]

Slightly off topic question here . While I totally agree with using AirSoft for FOF Training ( although Simunitions are the height of realism ) , I dont get the whole actually playing with them like paintball .

That's a skirmish where grown men play dress up and run around like GI JOE, completely off-topic for this thread however.

Dont get me wrong , I love the ultra realism of the AirSoft stuff , Im just having trouble getting my head around how the " game play " could be as much fun since the range is drastically reduced , the impacts might often not even be felt thru a " Tac Vest " or other equipment , etc . I just couldnt see myself spending the kinda money on Airsoft that I have on paintball . But Im always open to new ideas .

The range is completely applicable for self-defense training. If you want to train to be a soldier with 50+ yard engagements, get Simmunitions or Miles gear (or join the freakin military). If you want to train how to react to someone else taking the initiative and drawing on you, with your pass/fail criteria being to score solid hits on the move while not being hit, starting with drawing from your own daily carry holster with a weapon that approximates the feel and weight of your gun, then Airsoft rules the roost. For a low cost of entry (sub $200), one can likely learn more about what they will and will not be able to do when the shit hits the fan. Paintball doesn't give you that. Unless you're drawing from concealment (i.e. your regular clothing) from your regular holster with something that approximates your regular gun against an adversary that fully intends to drill you center mass as if his or her life depended on it, you're not training, you're just playing games. Playing games is fine and fun, but if your only real benefit is range, it really doesn't translate to training IMHO.

Both Airsoft BB's and paint balls are slower than bullets. At 21 feet, that's not so much of an issue...at 50 yards, things are very different. The further away from the target you get, the more important it is to approximate the real velocity of a firearm. My Airsoft gun shoots a little less than 1/3 the velocity of my carry gun (310-350fps), which, unless something has changed since I last looked at paintball, is still more than the international standard rule of 300fps for paintball play (but it's been a very long time since I looked, I have no idea what it is now). The difference is negligible really, at 21 feet or so.


Now, if one wants to play pretend with their Airsoft guns and dress them up to show off, more power to them. I've had my STI clone for a few months, I've already busted the magazine floor plate off and lost it, the gun is pretty beat to shit (never even noticed until tonight. The scuffs from drawing and re-holstering alone make this gun look like someone gave it to an angry toddler before nap time.

So far, I've met Carnes in the clothes I worked in that day (I work in an office), which I wear every day, right down to my stupid brown loafer-thingies, swapped my real carry gun out for a clone which weighs nearly the same, drew from real concealment and had a blast. The only changes made to what either of us would normally wear were the masks (required for safety and definitely not a performance enhancing thing), buttoning our top collars on our shirts (again, not a performance enhancing thing) and a glove on the left hand (not a performance enhancing thing, done to protect the weak hand from BB's, which doesn't do that great of a job).

If I had to dress up in a tac vest, knee pads or anything other than my Michael Jackson glove and Invasion USA face mask, I probably wouldn't bother unless I routinely wore those items on the way to and at work. The object isn't to spend money or have a gun that looks cool or more real, it's about approximating how and what you carry every day of your lives and testing (and improving) your ability to present those skills and tools while in your usual mode of dress. Now do that while someone else is trying to 'kill' you.

Paintball > Airsoft.

Sure, my gun might not "look real", but it stings and shoots far.

And I've got a REALLY authentic looking SIG P229, but it doesn't shoot little plastic pebbles

Airsoft hurts if you don't pussy out and wear armor. 310+FPS is no joke against a dress shirt and undershirt...even with a fleece jacket on top, you know you got hit unless a button, zipper or a fold takes the impact. And my knuckle, which is at present, two sizes too big and all manner of colors mother nature didn't see fit to bestow me with at birth, and the welt on my neck that took a week to heal, and the broken skin and tiny scab on my inner thigh...

As for realism...I can drill you in the head from a reactionary draw at around 21 feet. Carnes has a broken mask (in multiple places) to prove that. Can I do that at 50 feet? Not with an Airsoft...of course, it's unlikely that I could do that in real life either without legal consequences. Even still, that's why I have a real gun (carry gun and .22's), to practice distance shots. But for cost of entry and play, nothing beats Airsoft as long as you take it seriously. My real shooting has improved immensely just from shooting Airsft into a homemade trap in the basement...there's a rack of bowling pins at PMSC that call tell you all about that.


But sure, RAP is nice. If you want to spend nearly 3 times as much on the gun and spend about twice as much on ammo only to mark your "paintball gear", go ahead.

Again though, it's not about looking real. The P229 weighs a little over 32oz empty, what's the RAP equivalent weigh, 22-25oz? Now load that P229 and put some CO2 into the RAP. Are they even close? I'd guess that the RAP is almost a pound lighter. Are the dimensions the same? Does the RAP lock into your holster and mimic your carry piece in your normal attire?

My real STI weighs 27.oz empty, the STI clone weighs 36oz empty. The real STI weighs just about 37.5 ounces (give or take .5oz) with a loaded 17 round magazine (no magwell, I don't carry with it on). Adding 17 BB's and gas to the Airsoft gun probably doesn't push it past 36oz...but if you held both of them in your hand, you'd be hard pressed to tell which was the tool and which was the toy by total weight alone. I can add a couple of things to the toy to make the weight even, but it's so close it really doesn't matter.

Carnes' real G19 weighs 29.95oz loaded as I recall, his metal slide version Airsoft G19 weighs 28.6 ounces and it fits in his Serpa holster just like his carry gun. Can you do that with a paintball marker for under $100?

Now, the balance is different (weight is in the magazine mostly) and of course the recoil isn't there (there's some, maybe more than many would think, but not enough to approximate a real gun), but up until recoil management comes into play (recognize, react, draw, move, cover, concealment, sights, shoot etc...), it's about as close as one can get. "Training" for 3 hours most likely costs me less than a dollar in gas and BB's, and I spent under $200 total to get into the game in the first place (gun, BB's, mask, oil/adapter etc...).

Of course, ya'll are free to disagree if you like, I'm certainly no expert, but I would say that I'm pretty knowledgeable on the subject.

The bottom line, you get out of it what you put into it. If it's a game or a show-and-tell money sink to you, then you'll probably have fun and thin your wallet. If it's serious, you're probably going to learn something about yourself and how to be a more effective shooter. But who knows, I could be full of shit, I think someone once claimed that I was...they may have been right.


And now that we've totally trashed LRT's thread...back to his request for advice, please.

[Carnes]

i am looking to start doing some FoF training with a couple other guys from PAFOA...they use airsoft guns in doing the FoF, so i need to get me an airsoft replica of my glock 17.

any suggestions for brand or source or any other comments insights would be greatly appreciated.

i would like it to be as close to the real thing as possible. i would really like the gun to work with my actual carry holster (comp-tac c-tac). i would like the trigger to be as close to the glock trigger as possible. i would like the gun to feel as close to the real thing as possible. the gun has to be rugged enough to use in FoF training.

but, i would really like to keep it under $200 at most.

i've done a bit of research and think i have concluded that:

- i want a gas gun (as opposed to spring or electric).
- i would ideally like one with a steel slide.
- KSC (is KWA the same company?) seems to be a pretty well respected maker of airsoft glock 17s
- HFC seems to get mixed reviews, but there is apparently a store in pittsburgh that stocks the HFCs so i could probably try one out for feel, trigger, etc.

any and all input/comments would be greatly appreciated. i am a complete airsoft newbie.

thanks.

Seems like you are pretty on-track with your research so far.

The gas gun is the way to go. Springers are only 1-shot per racking of the slide.

For durability and realistic training a metal slide is a must. A metal barrel is something to look for also.

KSC and KWA are the same people. The difference is distribution. KWA does not make a G17 (any more) but KSC does. You can find KWA gun retailers easy in the US, but not so much with the KSC.

I don't know much about the HFC, because as soon as I learned that the HFC is not a 1:1 replica, and will not properly fit in a kydex holster designed for a G17, I crossed them off my list. (I have not tested the fit personally)

I ended up getting a KSC G17 from Red Wolf Airsoft. (It appears that they are presently out of stock)

I looked into getting a KWA G17 from Airsplat.com and they were out of stock when I checked, but it may be worth it to give them a call.

Both companies were a pleasure to deal with. Red Wolf is top notch. It only took 4 business days for Red Wolf to get my gun to me. Considering they ship out of Hong Kong, I was pretty impressed.

If RedWolf is still out of stock (I would send them an email to ask) the site that 97 linked to looks like a good bet.

The KSC G17 is an excellent training tool. The look and feel is the same as the 'real steel' version and it fits in my SERPA holster pefectly.

Some comparisons:

The loaded KSC weighs about as much as the real steel weighs empty.

KSC comes with same type sights as a standard GLOCK. (you can get 'night sights' with phosporesent dots)

The rail is fully functional and holds my real weapon light just fine.

The slide release and mag release function identically to the real-steel version, with the exception that releasing the slide on the KSC requires significantly less effort because the recoil spring on the KSC is much lighter than on the real steel.

The recoil spring being that much lighter is noticable. I have to make a conscious effort to rack the slide with a proper grip because it is easy to just use two fingers.

That also means that the felt recoil when shooting is much less than real steel. It is still enough that it is good for training, but there is no real 'muzzle flip' to deal with. I was hoping for stronger recoil to get better practice with follow-up shots, but I don't think it could get much better without live ammo/real steel.

The KSC trigger is considerably lighter than a stock G17 trigger. At first I did not like that much, but it has led me to seriously consider modifying the trigger on my G17. If nothing else, I am definately going to do the "25 cent trigger job." The weight is the only major difference, travel and reset seem very similar to the real steel.

The mags for the KSC properly fit into my kydex mag holder, and since the mag-release and such all works the same I think it will be good for practicing mag changes. So far, I have been hesitant because I don't want to fuck up the mags by dropping them on the ground, but I tried it out a bit today with good results. (The mags hold the gas as well as the ammo, and being entirely metal make up much of the overall weight of the gun) As a side note, since I got my gun from KSC(Hong Kong), I decided to get my spare mag from KWA(state-side), and it has worked flawlessly.

The only issue I have had with my KSC is a phillips head screw that goes from inside the rear of the slide up into the rear sight. This screw has a tendency to come loose after a couple hundred rounds or so, and needs to be retightened. This is a known issue that I have seen mentioned on other forums and reviews for the gun. If the screw backs out far enough, it affects the preformance of the gun. I think a bit of loctite will solve the issue, but I still need to pick some up.

The place I got mine from offered a package to 'supe-up' the gun. I'm glad that I didn't choose that option because I think it would ultimately reduce the lifespan of the gun and because getting shot with a gun that isn't on steriods already stings more than enough.



I'm trying to think of any other useful information... If I think of anything I'll post more.

[Carnes]

Slightly off topic question here . While I totally agree with using AirSoft for FOF Training ( although Simunitions are the height of realism ) , I dont get the whole actually playing with them like paintball .

97 covered most of the points well, but I want to emphasize that I do not "play" with my airsoft gun, and there is no "game" involved. After a training session with the airsoft gun I automatically 'win' because I learned something about myself and improved my capacity for effective self defense.

The best way to explain it is:

Paintball is to 'Do' (eg. Tae-kwon-do) as Airsoft is to 'Jitsu' (eg. Ju-Jitsu).

Unfortunately, that probably needs its own explination... Maybe later. Gun-Jitsu has a nice ring to it though.

[jpavoncello]

Airsoft (or the much more expensive Sims guns) are the only option for realistic force-on-force training. Fellow member Mercop offers non-ballistic close quarters pistol courses that revolve around airsoft guns and other hands-on training aides. Going to the range and shooting paper will never prepare you for a real life self defense situation the way FOF training can.
As for buying a gun, check eBay, there are always good quality gas powered airsoft guns there.