Open carry and what you should know before you do it

[twency]

I've been reading information posted in various places on this web site about issues like open carry and the License to Carry a Firearm (LTCF).
In several places I found statements that clearly state a LTCF is required to carry a firearm in a vehicle!
This is not an absolutely correct statement! There are exceptions!
I think it would be much better if those who write the material for those portions of the web site like the one explaining open carry did not leave out part of the law they wish to explain.
It is just as easy to be accurate in our explanations as it is to be inaccurate, but it's much better to be accurate!

If you have an objection to a particular statement, please quote it or at least provide a URL. It's tough to know what in particular you're referring to when you just say "several places". If it's a statement someone made in a post, the correct way to respond is to quote and reply in the thread containing the post. If it's a statement in the static content of the website then that can be taken up with management (which may or may not be effective in getting it changed).

The general rule in Pennsylvania (18 Pa.C.S. § 6106) is that carrying a firearm in a vehicle requires holding a license/permit or meeting another enumerated exception.

[Sgt.K]

I've been reading information posted in various places on this web site about issues like open carry and the License to Carry a Firearm (LTCF).
In several places I found statements that clearly state a LTCF is required to carry a firearm in a vehicle!
This is not an absolutely correct statement! There are exceptions!
I think it would be much better if those who write the material for those portions of the web site like the one explaining open carry did not leave out part of the law they wish to explain.
It is just as easy to be accurate in our explanations as it is to be inaccurate, but it's much better to be accurate!

Ray,

In addition to what normanvin and twency have said, keep in mind that 'carry' and 'transport' are two *completely* different animals, and that's without bringing long guns into the conversaion at all. One may 'transport' an unloaded, cased/boxed/contained firearm in their car without a LTCF - between home, range, gunsmith, and place of business (their own). One may NOT 'carry' a firearm in a vehicle without the LTCF. While there are exceptions, they are very few, very rare, and not likely to be valid for 99.9% of the members here. There are a great many threads here discussing the differences. Please spend some time using the search function before unilaterally dismissing the posts here. There is a great deal to know, and much of it is critical to your freedom if you intend to carry.

My 2¢ (IANAL)

[knight0334]

Ray,

In addition to what normanvin and twency have said, keep in mind that 'carry' and 'transport' are two *completely* different animals, and that's without bringing long guns into the conversaion at all. One may 'transport' an unloaded, cased/boxed/contained firearm in their car without a LTCF - between home, range, gunsmith, and place of business (their own). One may NOT 'carry' a firearm in a vehicle without the LTCF. While there are exceptions, they are very few, very rare, and not likely to be valid for 99.9% of the members here. There are a great many threads here discussing the differences. Please spend some time using the search function before unilaterally dismissing the posts here. There is a great deal to know, and much of it is critical to your freedom if you intend to carry.

My 2¢ (IANAL)

Carry is technically the same as transporting when it comes to vehicles. You carry a gun when you have it unloaded and in the trunk of a vehicle.

PA's law exempts carrying to/from certain places, under certain conditions.

We here at PAFOA tend to use transport and carry differently, but under the law it is the same thing. ...and there is either a SCOTUS or Circuit ruling backing that up.

[Sgt.K]

Carry is technically the same as transporting when it comes to vehicles. You carry a gun when you have it unloaded and in the trunk of a vehicle.

PA's law exempts carrying to/from certain places, under certain conditions.

We here at PAFOA tend to use transport and carry differently, but under the law it is the same thing. ...and there is either a SCOTUS or Circuit ruling backing that up.

I should really learn to not post anything technical while actively evacuating yellow and green $#!% from my sinuses...

[tl_3237]

Ray,

In addition to what normanvin and twency have said, keep in mind that 'carry' and 'transport' are two *completely* different animals, and that's without bringing long guns into the conversaion at all. One may 'transport' an unloaded, cased/boxed/contained firearm in their car without a LTCF - between home, range, gunsmith, and place of business (their own). One may NOT 'carry' a firearm in a vehicle without the LTCF. While there are exceptions, they are very few, very rare, and not likely to be valid for 99.9% of the members here. There are a great many threads here discussing the differences. Please spend some time using the search function before unilaterally dismissing the posts here. There is a great deal to know, and much of it is critical to your freedom if you intend to carry.

My 2¢ (IANAL)

Using the term 'carry' meaning on-person (OC or CC), differing exceptions require differing levels of pre-requisites for carry while in a vehicle. A few examples:
1. to/from range then on-person carry of an UNLOADED firearm in a vehicle is allowed [(b)(4)];
2. to/from residences/businesses, places of sale/purchase/repair, etc requires the firearm be unloaded and in a secure wrapper [(b)(8)];
3. with any other state license, regardless of reciprocation, the on-person (OC or CC) carry of a firearm (loaded or unloaded) is allowed while within a vehicle [(b)(11)] {N.B. the October 2013 Superior Court decision in McKown makes this exception somewhat tenuous for Pa residents without a Pa LTCF}.

Carry is technically the same as transporting when it comes to vehicles. You carry a gun when you have it unloaded and in the trunk of a vehicle.

PA's law exempts carrying to/from certain places, under certain conditions.

We here at PAFOA tend to use transport and carry differently, but under the law it is the same thing. ...and there is either a SCOTUS or Circuit ruling backing that up.

I believe you are referring to the 1998 MUSCARELLO v. UNITED STATES (96-1654)
No. 96—1654, 106 F.3d 636, and No. 96—8837, 106 F.3d 1056, affirmed.

[knight0334]

Using the term 'carry' meaning on-person (OC or CC), differing exceptions require differing levels of pre-requisites for carry while in a vehicle. A few examples:
1. to/from range then on-person carry of an UNLOADED firearm in a vehicle is allowed [(b)(4)];
2. to/from residences/businesses, places of sale/purchase/repair, etc requires the firearm be unloaded and in a secure wrapper [(b)(8)];
3. with any other state license, regardless of reciprocation, the on-person (OC or CC) carry of a firearm (loaded or unloaded) firearm is allowed while within a vehicle [(b)(11)];




I believe you are referring to the 1998 MUSCARELLO v. UNITED STATES (96-1654)
No. 96—1654, 106 F.3d 636, and No. 96—8837, 106 F.3d 1056, affirmed.

Yep, that be the one I was thinking of..

Thanks!

[rayl]

A few days ago I posted this:
"I've been reading information posted in various places on this web site about issues like open carry and the License to Carry a Firearm (LTCF).
In several places I found statements that clearly state a LTCF is required to carry a firearm in a vehicle!
This is not an absolutely correct statement! There are exceptions!
I think it would be much better if those who write the material for those portions of the web site like the one explaining open carry did not leave out part of the law they wish to explain.
It is just as easy to be accurate in our explanations as it is to be inaccurate, but it's much better to be accurate!"

I have NO legal training -- only an ability to read and reason.

My post brought a few responses for which I'm grateful.

I'm not sure if I can respond in some way to all those who responded to my post, but this post is my attempt to do that!

I was going through various posts and some of what I think is "static content" on the web site, reading about the issue of concealed/open carry.
I don't recall exactly what it was I read (either a post or static content) that prompted me to post my remarks.

My intent was to just indicate that it is better to not say things in a simple general way, unless saying it that way tells the entire story.
In the case of "carrying/transporting" a firearm in a vehicle, I find it unfortunate that so many will just say it requires a LTCF and leave it at that!
I don't insist they quote exactly the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA), but it would be nice if they didn't say it such a way that someone could get the wrong idea.

One of the respondents to my post suggested there is a difference between "transport" and "carry".
I find no such thing discussed in the UFA when it explains "transporting/carrying" firearms in a vehicle.

Another of the respondents to my post pointed out that "transport" and "carry" don't carry different meanings and, in fact, went on to state they are the same thing with respect to having a firearm in the vehicle.

Again, I find no comments in the UFA regarding whether "transport" and "carry" mean the same thing or different things.

Normally, I look in the Section 6102 of Subchapter A of Chapter 61 of Article G of the UFA to find out what a word means -- "transport" and "carry" are not explained there but "loaded" is (read it, if you think you know what "loaded" means in the context of firearms in a vehicle).

I thank everyone for their replies to my post and found them helpful.

I would encourage everyone, who hasn't already done so, to obtain a copy of the UFA and read it carefully!

One more point: I particularly appreciate the comments from those who pass on their experiences with respect to the issues dealing with firearms.

[rayl]

If you have an objection to a particular statement, please quote it or at least provide a URL. It's tough to know what in particular you're referring to when you just say "several places". If it's a statement someone made in a post, the correct way to respond is to quote and reply in the thread containing the post. If it's a statement in the static content of the website then that can be taken up with management (which may or may not be effective in getting it changed).

The general rule in Pennsylvania (18 Pa.C.S. § 6106) is that carrying a firearm in a vehicle requires holding a license/permit or meeting another enumerated exception.

This is what I was referring to when I indicated it is better to be accurate rather than just make a simple general statement about something:
"or meeting another enumerated exception"

Many participants on the site would leave that part out, creating the impression that going to the range with your handgun is unlawful (Ex. #4).

The other thing I find is often not understood is the meaning of "loaded".

Thanks for your response.

[Rblakely]

The other thing I find is often not understood is the meaning of "loaded".

Thanks for your response.

For me it means at least 5 Gin & Tonics....Sorry I thought the thread needed a little levity.

[twency]

This is what I was referring to when I indicated it is better to be accurate rather than just make a simple general statement about something:
"or meeting another enumerated exception"

Many participants on the site would leave that part out, creating the impression that going to the range with your handgun is unlawful (Ex. #4).

The other thing I find is often not understood is the meaning of "loaded".

Thanks for your response.

Rereading what I wrote it occurs to me I could have been more precise. Holding "a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter" is not an enumerated exception. Rather, failing to hold one is an an element of the offenses described in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106. Holding "a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state" is one of the enumerated exceptions.

Anyway, if you think you see something which is an error of omission feel free to bring that up (we argue over debate these things all the time), but if you want others to follow up you either need to do so in context (e.g. if it's in a post in a thread you can quote that post later in the thread) or provide a specific way to find it such as linking to it.