The Pocket Pistol Shootout

[Flash]

The Pocket Pistol Shoootout

The question was, “Since they are called pocket pistols, is it possible/practical to shoot them from inside a pocket?” And so, Wednesday, it was Pocket Pistol Shootout Day.

Jeff, Heather, Dave and I tested the theory and intent of “pocket pistols”. We took a Colt Junior 25ACP, a KelTec P32 (32ACP), KelTec P3AT(380ACP), S&W “Bodyguard”( shrouded-hammer 38SPL), and Charter Arms “Undercover”( bobbed-hammer style 38SPL). And a video camera (more on that later). And a modified B27 target.

A week ago, I had proposed to do this with a pair of sacrificial jeans and a jacket that I kind of detested. After trying on the jeans, it became immediately apparent that the jeans gave so little latitude for holding a pistol – ANY pistol – in the pocket and firing it that I changed trousers to an old pair of polyester work trousers that had at least a bit of maneuvering room in the pocket. Some of you readers who are built to a less generous scale might have different results, or if you wear your jeans more toward the current spud-sack style of clothing design. These slacks I wore were not pleat-fronted, but were of the type typically found in such trade-names as “Dockers” and “Red Cap” uniforms. The jacket was a flannel-lined, slash-pocketed, hooded, zip-up sweatshirt.
Ammunition was : 25ACP, REM-UMC RNFMJ; 32ACP, Win 60 gr Personal Protection Silvertip JHP; the 380ACP was an assortment of Super Vel and Browning JHP’s that have rolled around in the bottom of the gun box since 1972. The 38SPL was Winchester’s “WinClean” 125 gr JSP.
The first test would be of all weapons from trouser pocket, then in the same order, from the jacket, beginning with smallest caliber to largest.
The setup was with the modified B-27 target stapled to the target frame, shooting would be from four yards, a close enough point to represent a situation where the immediacy of shooting is upon the shooter, as though the assailant has closed the distance enough to warrant a shot. Presumption would be that the defender had not been able to clear the weapon from the clothing.
As a number of contributors to this PAFOA list suggested, shooting from the pants pocket was not terribly successful. They were partially right, but the first shot fired appropriately. (More on aim/hits later, too).

As it worked out:

The first shot ALWAYS fired. Succeeding shots did not, as the empty case was, in all three cases, not fully ejected. It remained in the ejection port, parallel with the fresh round which was, in all three cases, stripped from the magazine and started into the chamber with its rim being engaged by the extractor claw. The action was prevented from closing by the spent case which was trapped between the breach-face and the mouth of the chamber. This failure to eject was attributed to the fact that as the pistol was drawn up into firing position, it drew the trousers taut over the top of the slide, thereby preventing full ejection, though extraction from the chamber was complete and the second round was stripped from the magazine, as previously noted.
Firing from the jacket pocket was as expected, with the 25 and the 32 operating flawlessly through their full magazines. The 380 caught a shred of the shot-frayed material between the breach-face and the chamber mouth to prevent its 3rd round from going fully into battery, but a simple yank of the pistol dislodged this and it finished the magazine without further problem.

The big action was with the 38’s, and these revolvers fully lived up to expectations. Both in the trouser pocket and in the jacket pocket, they functioned as designed, that is, flawlessly, firing all five rounds without problem. There was some initial thought that the “sort of exposed” hammer on the Charter Arms, though bobbed, would possibly snag some material and thus create a stoppage. Happily, this was not so, and it fired all five. It is surmised that an older “Chief’s Special” style revolver which has the firing pin in the hammer may be more likely to snag material with the firing pin. Modern revolvers with “transfer bar” system and the firing pin captive in the frame should prove more reliable.

As could be imagined, after firing a couple of shots out of the jacket pocket, the front of the pocket was somewhat frayed, and it seemed that reaction to recoil tended to make the muzzle of the pistol protrude, especially with the revolvers. This phenomenon did not occur when shooting from the trousers. This may be so because the trousers sort of held together, probably because the outside material as well as the pocket material was a high proportion of polyester, and the fabric, though it “blew out” significantly, seemed to more melt than explode. The trousers held together enough to remain wearable for the day, but they were definitely “shot” for future wear. It was a chilly, rainy day out at the range, up there against the side of the mountain.

Observations:
The first shot out of the trouser pocket with the 25ACP might well have been described as a warning shot, or if it had hit the assailant, it would have merely trimmed his toenail. The FTE ended that trial. It was that I simply turned the pistol up from its muzzle-down position in the pocket and fired.
Learning from that, on the first shot with the P32, I kind of leaned back and hiked the trousers up and the first shot struck kneecap area. FTE ended this trial here.
Learning as I went, the first shot with the P3AT was a real winner, but directly in the groin. Center ! (That had to hurt). Again, FTE ended the trial.

With the revolvers, as before mentioned, all five shots fired appropriately, and were COM. There is no real precise aiming possible in this scenario, but at 12 feet, it isn’t too difficult to make hits. As expected, the weapons with which I was more familiar yielded better hits-- (Still, it’s kinda hard to miss at that distance, even if the B-27 IS a reduced size). The three misses were with the small caliber arms.

The conclusion:

If you are going to carry in a pocket, #1 - make sure you are able to bring the gun into battery, aimed in the right direction. For this exercise, I think even baggy pants would have been restrictive to good aim, and not conducive to repeated shots with autos.
If you are going to carry in a pocket #2 - Use a revolver of either shrouded or hammerless design.
If you are going to carry in a pocket #3 – select a carry position beforehand that allows you to surreptitiously put your weapon in the firing hand – readiness, maybe even draw.
Pocket holsters, though they may conceal the outline of the firearm, will be a disadvantage to drawing and shooting, and will become an absolute prohibition to shooting from inside the pocket. Yes, there are holsters made which allow a small auto to be carried with a finger through the trigger, but we didn’t test that concept. My personal opinion is that it is not the best choice, and I expect that the FTE problem would exist there, too.
With an auto carried in the pocket, you might get off the first shot, but it would likely be inaccurate, a waste of your time and ammunition, give away the element of surprise if such may accrue to you, cost you further time in removing a weapon from a pocket, clearing it (if you even can), possibly losing another round in the process, and adding to your stress/frustration level.

Personally:
I will focus even more carefully on my own training and practice, specifically drawing and getting clear of clothing obstructions. I will carry whenever possible in a consistent position, either IWB with holster or on the KelTec belt-clip, or OWB in a holster, but still in a fairly consistent position on my body. Of course situational awareness is paramount, and avoiding opportunities for CQB whenever possible. (Discretion is the better part of valor, there.) And - Figure out a way to dress or to arm myself for the occasion which allows carrying in a fashion that does not hamper my draw/presentation.

I welcome your opinions and comments on this and thank you for the opportunity to test the theory.

Thanks to thatJeffguy, Heather, and Dave for encouragement and company. And which one of you called me “Ol’ Drafty Drawers”? That hurt.

Flash

Edited after consideration: One member of the board thought there would be some ignition of pocket or lint-balls. Was NONE. Even the cylinder/forcing cone blast was a non-issue with either revolver. Didn't even sienge my BVD's. Nomex skivvies would have been overkill.

[CommonHighrise]

Nice documentation on real-world testing. Informative, even if the results were as to be expected.

Kudos, Mr. Drafty Drawers.

[Flash]

Nice documentation on real-world testing. Informative, even if the results were as to be expected.

Kudos, Mr. Drafty Drawers.

Thanks, we kinda thought we would get better results from the SMALL autos. And nothing got set afire, though some on the board thought that would be an issue. Now, if we could just get the video from Dave.

Flash

[Tony Fly]

Great Info! I carry a P32 both in pocket and IWB (via the belt clip)

Thanks for the insight!

[thatJeffguy]

This was an immensely enjoyable test day. One aspect that really surprised me was the lack of a burn, to either Bob or his trousers, from the wheel guns. I suppose the flash was just so quick it didn't have time to deflagrate any of the material.
A fantastic, fun and educational day at the range! Thanks Flash, Dave and Heather.

[Fudmottin]

I've always carried my 639 in a pocket holster.

One thing about wheel guns is they don't toss their brass. There are all sorts of advantages with that, especially if you hand load.

[riverpirate]

Im sorry but you could not pay me enough to fire my p3at that close to my .......... well you know what , lol. i know how much they kick and with my luck well ..... that would be the last thing to go off in my pants , lol.

[Flash]

Im sorry but you could not pay me enough to fire my p3at that close to my .......... well you know what , lol. i know how much they kick and with my luck well ..... that would be the last thing to go off in my pants , lol.

Well, you just have to get a firm grip n your . . . . . . . . weapon.

Then, the four rules of safety become active.

Flash

Mind your muzzle.