Is my UZI a Pistol or a Rifle...worried about a recent transfer

[mioduz]

just got an uzi sporter A with the standard 16" barrel and folding stock. To me this is a rifle, and should be registered as one. At the time of purchase I had to fill out the form as to register it as a handgun. Here is my dilema: I know for a fact that if I buy a standard pistol and put a butstock on it, that constitutes an NFA violation (go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200).
Was it correct to have this registered as a pistol....and if it is a pistol, doesn't that mean that I can carry it loaded on my person or in my vehicle.
Something isnt right here?!?!

[Pa. Patriot]

There is no registration in Pa.

18Pa.C.S.6111 generally requires handguns be transferred on a SP4-113 form (white form).

If your dealer required the SP4-113 form when they transferred the UZI carbine to you they did so in error and violation of 18Pa.C.S.6111

However, they may have done this on the advice of the PSP/PICS people who are erroneously, illegally and foolishly telling dealers to transfer "pistol gripped" rifles and carbines as handguns. They will likely soon be getting sued (again)

See this thread for more info on the idiotic antics of the incompetent morons in charge at PSP/PICS. (Yes, in case it's not obvious, I have no tolerance at all for people in positions of authority being incompetent
)
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...sferred+pistol

[PA Rifleman]

Reader's Digest condensed version: we must comply with all laws, Federal, state and local. The short-barreled rifle scenario (handgun with a shoulder stock) is a Federal level issue. To further confuse matters, PA passed a lot of what I call "me too" laws. So, there are a lot of Federal firearm laws that also appear in PA laws as well. I suppose we're safer with certain things being double-illegal.

Getting back to your question, any gun whose overall length is, or can be reconfigured to less than 26 inches is a "firearm" by Pennsylvania's definition. (read: handgun or tantamount to a handgun) in Penna. This is most likely why it was transferred as a handgun, and appears correct as I understand Pennsylvania law.

There is no Federal law addressing the overall length of a rifle.

Edited to add PA Crimes Code section 6111, see red text.

§6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.
(a) Time and manner of delivery.*
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser or transferee thereof until 48 hours shall have elapsed from the time of the application for the purchase thereof, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded.
(2) Thirty days after publication in the Pennsylvania Bulletin that the Instantaneous Criminal History Records Check System has been established in accordance with the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159, 18 U.S.C. §921 et seq.), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser thereof until the provisions of this section have been satisfied, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded.
(b) Duty of seller.-No licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall sell or deliver any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufac*turer, licensed dealer or licensed collector, until the conditions of subsection (a) have been sat*isfied and until he has:
(1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, li*censed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee. The form of this application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer, The application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee, the date of the application and the caliber, length of barrel, make, model and manufacturer's number of the firearm to be purchased or transferred.
(1.1) On the date of publication in the Pennsylvania Bulletin of a notice by the Pennsylva*nia State Police that the instantaneous records check has been implemented, all of the follow*ing shall apply:
(i) In the event of an electronic failure under section 611 l.l(b)(2) (relating to Pennsylva*nia State Police) for purposes of a firearm which exceeds the barrel and related lengths set forth in section 6102, obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee.
(ii) The form of application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer.
(iii) For purposes of conducting the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check which shall be completed within ten days of receipt of the information from the dealer, the application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee and the date of application.
(iv) No information regarding the type of firearm need be included other than an indica*tion that the firearm exceeds the barrel lengths set forth in section 6102.
(v) Unless it has been discovered pursuant to a criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check that the potential purchaser or transferee is prohib*ited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms), no information on the application/record of sale provided pursuant to this subsection shall be retained as precluded by section 6111.4 (relating to registration of firearms) by the Pennsylvania State Police either through retention of the application/record of sale or by entering the information on a computer, and, further, an application /record of sale received by the Pennsylvania State Police pursuant to this subsec*tion shall be destroyed within 72 hours of the completion of the criminal history, juvenile de*linquency and mental health records background check.
(1.2) Fees collected under paragraph (3) and section 6111.2 (relating to firearm sales sur*charge) shall be transmitted to the Pennsylvania State Police within 14 days of collection.
(1.3) In addition to the criminal penalty under section 6119 (relating to violation pen*alty), any person who knowingly and intentionally maintains or fails to destroy any information submitted to the Pennsylvania State Police for purposes of a background check pursuant to paragraphs (1. l) and (1.4) or violates section 6111.4 (relating to registration of firearms) shall be subject to a civilpenaltyof$250per violation, entry or failure to destroy.
(1.4) (As amended by L.1998, Art 70(4), eff. 6118198. See other par. (1.4) below.) Follow*ing implementation of the instantaneous records check by the Pennsylvania State Police on or before December 31, 1999, no application/record of sale shall be completed for the purchase or transfer of a firearm which exceeds the barrel lengths set forth in section 6102. A statement shall be submitted by the dealer to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, containing the number of firearms sold which exceed the barrel and related lengths set forth in section 6102, the amount of surcharge and other fees re*mitted and a list of the unique approval numbers given pursuant to paragraph (4), together with a statement that the background checks have been performed on the firearms contained in the statement. The form of the statement relating to performance of background checks shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police.
(1.4) (As amended by L.1998, Act 121(4), eff1213198. See other par. (1.4) above ) Fol*lowing implementation of the instantaneous records check by the Pennsylvania State Police on or before December 1, 1998, no application/record of sale shall be completed for the pur*chase or transfer of a firearm which exceeds the barrel lengths set forth in section 6102. A statement shall be submitted by the dealer to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, containing the number of firearms sold which exceed the barrel and related lengths set forth in section 6102, the amount of surcharge and other fees remitted and a list of the unique approval numbers given pursuant to paragraph (4), together with a statement that the background checks have been performed on the firearms contained in the statement. The form of the statement relating to performance of background checks shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police.
(2) Inspected photoidentification of the potential purchaser or transferee, including but not limited to, a driver's license, official Pennsylvania photoidentification card or official government photoidentification card. In the case of a potential buyer or transferee who is a member of a recognized religious sect or community whose tenets forbid or discourage the taking of photographs of members of that sector community, a seller shall accept a valid-with*out-photo driver's license or a combination of documents, as prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's name, address, date of birth and the signature of the applicant.
(3) Requested by means of a telephone call that the Pennsylvania State Police conduct a criminal history, juvenile delinquency history and a mental health record check. The pur*chaser and the licensed dealer shall provide such information as is necessary to accurately identify the purchaser. The requester shall be charged a fee equivalent to the cost of providing the service but not to exceed $2 per buyer or transferee.
(4) Received a unique approval number for that inquiry from the Pennsylvania State Police and recorded the date and the number on the application/record of sale form.
(5) Issued a receipt containing the information from paragraph (4), including the unique approval number of the purchaser. This receipt shall be prima facie evidence of the pur*chaser's or transferee's compliance with the provisions of this section.
(6) Unless it has been discovered pursuant to a criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check that the potential purchaser or transferee is prohib*ited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105, no information received via tele*phone following the implementation of the instantaneous background check system from a purchaser or transferee who has received a unique approval number shall be retained by the Pennsylvania State Police.
(7) For purposes of the enforcement of 18 U.S.C. §922(4)(9), (g)(1) and (s)(1) (relating to unlawful acts), in the event the criminal history or juvenile delinquency background check indicates a conviction for a misdemeanor that the Pennsylvania State Police cannot determine is or is not related to an act of domestic violence, the Pennsylvania State Police shall issue a temporary delay of the approval of the purchase or transfer. During the temporary delay, the Pennsylvania State Police shall conduct a review or investigation of the conviction with courts, local police departments, district attorneys and other law enforcement or related insti*tutions as necessary to determine whether or not the misdemeanor conviction involved an act of domestic violence. The Pennsylvania State Police shall conduct the review or investigation as expeditiously as possible. No firearm may be transferred by the dealer to the purchaser who is the subject of the investigation during the temporary delay. The Pennsylvania State Police shall notify the dealer of the termination of the temporary delay and either deny the sale or pro*vide the unique approval number under paragraph (4).
(c) Duty of other persons.-Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sher*iff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.
(d) Defense.-Compliance with the provisions of this section shall be a defense to any criminal complaint under the laws of this Commonwealth or other claim or cause of action under this chapter arising from the sale or transfer of any firearm.
(e) Nonapplicability of section.-This section shall not apply to the following:
(1) Any firearm manufactured on or before 1898.
(2) Any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap type of ignition system. (3) Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (1) if the replica:
(i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammuni*tion;
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manu*factured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(f) Application of section.*
(1) For the purposes of this section only, except as provided by paragraph (2), "firearm" shall mean any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
(2) The provisions contained in subsections (a) and (c) shall only apply to pistols or revolvers with a barrel length of less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, any rifle with a barrel of less than 16 inches or any firearm with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

[Pa. Patriot]

Getting back to your question, any gun whose overall length is, or can be reconfigured to less than 26 inches is a "firearm" by Pennsylvania's definition. (read: handgun or tantamount to a handgun) in Penna. This is most likely why it was transferred as a handgun, and appears correct as I understand Pennsylvania law.

Nope. This is a recent non legal decision by the people in charge of PICS. It is not congruent with the UFA or any case law I can find.

[mioduz]

yes that is the "excuse" that they gave me.....since when the folded stock was folded the entire rifle was less than 26" I was given the extra form. So if I understand this correctly, it was not registered as a pistol even though i filled out the pistol transfer form???


im confused

[Pa. Patriot]

yes that is the "excuse" that they gave me.....since when the folded stock was folded the entire rifle was less than 26" I was given the extra form.

Please post the dealer/establishment so they can be politely directed to the *corect* legal info.

Overall length (OAL) on a folding stock firearm is measured with the stock extended (not folded)

The dealer/clerk does not know what they are doing.

So if I understand this correctly, it was not registered as a pistol even though i filled out the pistol transfer form???

Again, there is NO registration in Pa.

And regardless of the clerk erroneously and unlawfully executing a form SP4-113 the fact remains that your carbine is NOT a pistol.

[mioduz]

Please post the dealer/establishment so they can be politely directed to the *corect* legal info.

I got it from this little store in Hamburg pa....many of you probably heard of them...small outfit called cabelas...it wasnt the gentleman that helped me with the firearm it was actually the gun library guys that i talked to about it.
So if I wanted to sell this rifle....do I have to have it transfered at a dealer or can I still do a private sale (not that I want to i got a hell of a deal i think at $1200 for a model A unfired in the box)

[Pa. Patriot]

So if I wanted to sell this rifle....do I have to have it transfered at a dealer

Nope, it's a long gun.

[nfafan]

Nope, it's a long gun.

+1 to that, always has been a "long gun".

[cms81586]

I had a dealer transfer an AK as a pistol because he was measuring barrel length from the end of the gas block to the muzzle instead of the correct method. We argued and then he finally did the transfer as a handgun. I immediately called PSP to ask about it and they didn't give two shits...so I'm guessing that it's not that big of a deal. As long as you have a 16" barrel then the folder is fine no matter how it was transferred.

CMS