Ownership Issue

[ach382]

My best friend passed away recently. Before he died, he verbally stated that his .38 S&W would be passed on to me. After he died, his family gave me the firearm per his request, however, we could not find any of the original paperwork including registration and ownership documents. Before I CC with this firearm, I need the above documents. Any suggestions on how I get them?

I was thinking of contacting the AG office of the state to see if any copies of the purchase are available, which his family can use to legally transfer the gun into my ownership? Any other suggestions?

If someone passes and all their firearms are in their name, whats the protocol for making the guns legal for someone Else's use, especially if the paperwork can't be found?

Thanks for the help!

[NineseveN]

My best friend passed away recently. Before he died, he verbally stated that his .38 S&W would be passed on to me. After he died, his family gave me the firearm per his request, however, we could not find any of the original paperwork including registration and ownership documents. Before I CC with this firearm, I need the above documents. Any suggestions on how I get them?

I was thinking of contacting the AG office of the state to see if any copies of the purchase are available, which his family can use to legally transfer the gun into my ownership? Any other suggestions?

If someone passes and all their firearms are in their name, whats the protocol for making the guns legal for someone Else's use, especially if the paperwork can't be found?

Thanks for the help!

That doesn't sound like a legal transfer to me if they already gave the gun to you. They don't need any paperwork to sell you the gun, but both parties need to go to an FFL and have the paperwork for you to take ownership done there (PICS background check, form 4473). If this were a rifle things would be different, but being that it's a handgun, you need to do the transfer through an FFL.

There is no such thing as registration or ownership documents in PA, and even if you found the original copy of the receipt or form 4473, that still doesn't make the transfer legal, you must transfer handguns through a holder of a Federal Firearms License in Pennsylvania.

[Steve in PA]

My best friend passed away recently. Before he died, he verbally stated that his .38 S&W would be passed on to me. After he died, his family gave me the firearm per his request, however, we could not find any of the original paperwork including registration and ownership documents. Before I CC with this firearm, I need the above documents. Any suggestions on how I get them?

I was thinking of contacting the AG office of the state to see if any copies of the purchase are available, which his family can use to legally transfer the gun into my ownership? Any other suggestions?

If someone passes and all their firearms are in their name, whats the protocol for making the guns legal for someone Else's use, especially if the paperwork can't be found?

Thanks for the help!

You need a copy of the death certificate and the person with the power of attorney for the deceased.....or possibly the person in charge of his estate. You do not need the original paperwork to complete a transfer.

The way they did it is an illegal transfer.

[tl_3237]

+1 to what NineseveN and Steve in Pa said.

18 Pa. CSA 6111(c) Duty of other persons.-Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sher*iff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild

Since the executor/executrix is acting as the agent of the estate, they would have to stand in place of the 'seller' in providing the necessary 'seller' documentation to the transfer agent (FFL, ect).

[MikeB0]

You need a copy of the death certificate and the person with the power of attorney for the deceased.....or possibly the person in charge of his estate. You do not need the original paperwork to complete a transfer.

The way they did it is an illegal transfer.

Making the assumption, yeah I know; that the OP has a LTCF, could not the person in charge of the estate not just give the firearm to the OP legally?

18 Pa.C.S. § 6115: Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited
(a) Offense defined.--No person shall make any loan secured by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to the provisions of this subchapter.
(b) Exception.--
(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:
(i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses).
(ii) The person who receives the firearm is exempt from licensing.
(iii) The person who receives the firearm is engaged in a hunter safety program certified by the Pennsylvania Game Commission or a firearm training program or competition sanctioned or approved by the National Rifle Association.
(iv) The person who receives the firearm meets all of the following:
(A) Is under 18 years of age.
(B) Pursuant to section 6110.1 (relating to possession of firearm by minor) is under the supervision, guidance and instruction of a responsible individual who:
(I) is 21 years of age or older; and
(II) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).
(v) The person who receives the firearm is lawfully hunting or trapping and is in compliance with the provisions of Title 34 (relating to game).
(vi) A bank or other chartered lending institution is able to adequately secure firearms in its possession.
(2) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the transfer of a firearm under 20 Pa.C.S. Ch. 21 (relating to intestate succession) or by bequest if the individual receiving the firearm is not precluded from owning or possessing a firearm under section 6105.
(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the loaning or giving of a firearm to another in one's dwelling or place of business if the firearm is retained within the dwelling or place of business.
(4) Nothing in this section shall prohibit the relinquishment of firearms to a third party in accordance with 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping).

[tl_3237]

Making the assumption, yeah I know; that the OP has a LTCF, could not the person in charge of the estate not just give the firearm to the OP legally?

That exemption basically allows loaning. It would also indemnify a 'giver' against prosecution for violation of §6115 BUT a 'giver' is also bound by §6111(quoted earlier) which forces the involvement of a transfer agent (ex: FFL). The §6115 exemption does not apply to §6111.

[mjfletcher]

Being as transfers between spouses, parent/child, grandparent/grandchild don't need to go through an FFL, couldn't the deceaseds wife/parent/grandparent simply go in and fill out the 4473 as the seller without need for an executor or death certificate?

[tl_3237]

Being as transfers between spouses, parent/child, grandparent/grandchild don't need to go through an FFL, couldn't the deceaseds wife/parent/grandparent simply go in and fill out the 4473 as the seller without need for an executor or death certificate?

IMO they can't do the transfer acting in their own capacity since they are not the owners of the firearm. The estate comes into being as a legal entity at the monent of death and becomes the owner. At the same instant the deceased ceases to be a legal entity and therefore unable to perform any transactions. The estate has a legal representative, usually upon certification of a court, that acts as executor and sees to the estate distribution and final dissolution. The executor is normally nominated in the will or defaults to a family member in a succession order and the certification is a prefunctory process which varies by state.

Any transfer would have to be done by the estate as the seller represented by the executor.


I'm curious if an FFL could explain what type of information is required of the 'seller' in doing the transfer both in the course of a normal sale and also in an estate sale.

[Pa. Patriot]

Outside the exceptions, 6111 penalizes transferring handguns without the required FFL involvement. Not the recipient.

While it may have been an "illegal transfer" there are no consequences in the law for the recipient unless the were to somehow throw a conspiracy or accessory charge at you .

That said, you should execute the transfer with the executor of the estate so they do not get in trouble down the road (unlikely).

Also, some PD's are using the database of transfer records *as a registry of ownership* This is of course not correct, legal or possible (database is not complete) and has caused people grief due to overzealous LEO's "running your ser# through the database. Having the transfer database reflect your name will help alleviate the possibility of having your firearm unlawfully taken (stolen) by an incompetent or improperly trained LEO as has been somewhat common. At least until we finally get the education to the PD's doing this but that's going to take a while