"Firearms Prohibited" signs going up at Lebanon Valley Mall

[typeshluder]

...................

[Searcher67]

Count on me never going there again. I live close to it, though have only been there 3 times in 4 years.

[General Geoff]

How can they endorse a victim disarmament zone in good conscience?

[typeshluder]

.......................

[shefearsnothing]

"Firearms Prohibited" signs going up at Lebanon Valley Mall

They will need some other signs to go with them.

ATTENTION CRIMINALS. GUN FREE ZONE. NO ONE HERE IS ARMED. EASY TARGETS.

[w1cked]

I'm fully aware these signs have no legal weight, but I was told that they are going up in the next week or so. Add that as another location to avoid going to. Although, concealed is concealed and no one would ever know and all the sheeple will feel safe.

I was under the impression that they might.

3503(b)(1), section (ii) specifically

IANAL.

(b) Defiant trespasser.--
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
(i) actual communication to the actor;
(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at
each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
prohibited without authorization from a designated
school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
officer.

[HiredGoon]

I was under the impression that they might.

3503(b)(1), section (ii) specifically

IANAL.

(b) Defiant trespasser.--
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
(i) actual communication to the actor;
(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at
each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
prohibited without authorization from a designated
school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
officer.

As mentioned before:
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...tml#post351331

[tdyoung58]

I'm fully aware these signs have no legal weight, but I was told that they are going up in the next week or so. Add that as another location to avoid going to. Although, concealed is concealed and no one would ever know and all the sheeple will feel safe.

I think I go there once a year.... maybe. Do they have any stores there anymore anyways?

[JCWohlschlag]

I'm fully aware these signs have no legal weight, but I was told that they are going up in the next week or so. Add that as another location to avoid going to. Although, concealed is concealed and no one would ever know and all the sheeple will feel safe.

I was under the impression that they might.

More importantly, a lawyer agrees that a “no guns” sign can “hold legal weight” (whatever that means).

....

Also, posted signs hold no legal weight in PA, the management must tell someone specifically that they are not permitted to bring a weapon into the building and ask the person to leave before they can do anything more.

......

Please stop saying this, it's not necessarily true, no matter how many times it's repeated.

If you carry a gun into a place that is posted against guns, you could arguably be prosecuted under the trespassing statute, for doing something on the property that you have been placed on notice you are without license to do.

Signs have legal weight. The signs in the parking garage that say "not responsible for lost items" have legal weight. Signs are not a legal nullity, and in the absence of case law interpreting the trespassing statute to clearly negate the "no guns" signs, we do a disservice to people by giving them the false sense of confidence that they are free to ignore these signs.

It's true that other states have specific statutes giving weight to these specific signs, and PA does not have such a law. However, that's not the same as saying that there's no operative difference between having a sign and not having a sign. You can't be prosecuted in PA under the "disobeying a no weapons sign" statute because there is none, but we do have a "trespassing" statute. A sign puts you on notice as to the terms of the permission granted to you to use the private property of another. If you go outside those terms of use, you are trespassing.

This is a legal matter, it's a legal conclusion, and you need to have a firm legal basis before telling anyone that it's safe to say "screw you" to a property owner and make him tell you face-to-face what his sign already advised you.

My personal opinion agrees that a sign can “hold legal weight”. If a sign couldn’t hold legal weight, why would signs be specifically mentioned in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3503 (Criminal trespass) (b)(1)(ii)?

(b) Defiant trespasser.--

(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;

Now, this argument doesn’t consider the likelihood of being charged without having first had a verbal command to leave, nor does it consider the likelihood of being charged for this while carrying concealed (assuming it stays concealed enough that no one knows you are armed). However, it does offer a lawyer’s interpretation of the oft debated phrases “knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so” and “reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.” Take what you may from this lawyer interpretation, and carry against a sign at your own risk.

[PA-Joe]

You OC guys did this to yourselves!

For liability reasons all commercial stores are going to have to post signs like this. Not really caused by OC guys but too many shootings in commerical buildings.