This is EXACTLY why I stopped being a mechanic

[dc dalton]

God I do hate cars. Now granted our Park Avenue has never let us sitting in the three years we have had it and I have never had to do more than brakes tires and two ignition coils but today the bitch got us.

We took off just before 8 to hit the flea market before all the tourists come out of their holes. Just as we get on to rt. 80 (from the Scotrun exit) the car dies. I try and restart it (it has a bad habit of stalling once in a while) and allow the car to roll and off into the berm. It was acting like it was out of gas and while it was low I know the gauge well enough to know it wasn't.

Tried to restart it a few times and nothing. So out of the car, pop the hood and make sure nothing stupid happened (I just did valve cover gaskets on it yesterday so I though I might have knocked a wire loose) ... still nothing. I pull one of the fuel lines off and had Tootie turn it over ... dammit no gas pressure.

So I leave Tootie with the car (yes of course she is armed) and OC my butt across 4 lanes of rt. 80, down the ramp by the crossings and to the corner of 715 and 611. Buy a can and some gas (at this point unsure I 'know' the gas gauge as well as I thought I did) and hike my butt back to the car. Dump the gas in and try again .. still nothing and the engine seems to be spinning too fast.

So at this point a million things are running through my head but most of all:

1. Broken timing chain
1. Dead fuel pump
2. Some stupid computer problem

Just as I am thinking this Tootie says "BTW, the electric windows stopped working"

OK, now I'm thinking computer problem. Call a tow truck and $95 later we are home with the car and the fun begins.

Called a friend to see if he has his Snap On scanner, nope it's in Kansas. SHIT, so I tell him what's going on and he says it sounds like a timing chain... anyways off I go to start testing.

Check for spark - perfect AND by arcing the plug wire to the lifting lug the engine tries to start ... Put the plug wire back on and nothing, seriously now I'm saying WTF

Pull a plug to make sure they aren't soaked in gas ... dry as a bone (now I'm back to thinking the fuel pump or computer)

Take the oil cap off to make sure the rockers are moving - no problem there.

Pull the fuel line off again and NOW we have fuel ... ok, I'm scratching my head BIG time.

So I walk across the street and borrow my neighbors cheapy scanner. Before I connect it I try again (had been about 10 minutes) and the car starts and instantly stops ...

Hook up the scanner and get this EST not toggling error ... Now I stopped doing heavy mechanical work back in 1999 so I'm really wondering what they hell this means so I call my friend back (he was my boss at a shop eons ago and is now a car dealer). Obviously EST means electronic spark timing but what the HELL does 'not toggling' mean. We haven't clue one so it's off to Google.

First off (and a little sidetrack here) Google is REALLY starting to suck with its results lately but I eventually find a mechanic forum where a guy has the same problem and then of course 5 other people chime in to say they had the same thing happen to them ... what pisses me off is the answers.

They are saying it can be anything from the crank sensor, the cam sensor or the ECM ..... if I wasn't already so pissed off I would have told the guy that said change the crank sensor he was an IDIOT (crank sensor controls spark NOT fuel). Then I find another post that says if you change the cam sensor you have to make sure the magnet on the camshaft didn't fall off! I'm like SAY WHAT?

Then I spend 20 minutes on Google trying to find out where exactly the cam sensor is on a 3800. Finally find it. Off to rip the car apart.

Now me being pissed off and doing mechanical things usually doesn't work out so well. I find the wire coming out of the cam sensor by the water pump (buried under tons of crap) ... out come the tools and half the front of the motor. Get to the cam sensor and get it out. 35 cent piece of "made in Mexico" CRAP.

I call every damn parts store in the area to see if I can find a cam sensor and as usual no one has it in stock. Borrow the neighbors car and drive to Mt. Pocono to order and pay for it (see my OC post about this here: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...sometimes.html ) and haul my butt home.

When I get home I start searching for the cam sensor again and find a post on some forum that says it's a 10 minute job if you do it from underneath ... told you I shouldn't work on cars when I'm pissed. So I march my ass out into the 85 degree heat and put it all back together (except the sensor) all while calling myself every name in the book for not looking before handling wrenches. This will be the third time today to sweat through my jeans and t-shirt!

So here we are stuck without a car and have a $50 part coming in tomorrow that I'm not even 100% sure is the problem. If I put that in and it doesn't work then I have to get an ECM!

DAMN do I miss the days of "fuel fire and air" ... these god damn computerized cars are what made me decide to get out of the business in 1999 and I STILL hate them! When I had my shop I had more scanners and books (like "starts but runs funny") and half the time it was still a guess at what the problem was.

If I could find one I'd buy a 1965 Biscayne and we'd drive that ... sick and TIRED of these damn computerized abominations!

[Whiskey Delta]

I would add one step to your trouble shooting:

Spray carb cleaner into intake while cranking. If the vehicle runs, you are good on spark/computer.

If your windows are stopped, I am wondering why you thought computer? Your buddy suggesting timing chain sounds suspect as well.

Sounds like electrical problem or bad fuel pump, start with your ground lead.

Then check for power at electric fuel pump. I am betting on a bad fuel pump.

Fuel pumps go shitty like every other motor, and if you let your fuel tank go dry they will run without the fuel cooling the pump, and that can be enough to kill them for good.

[dc dalton]

I would add one step to your trouble shooting:

Spray carb cleaner into intake while cranking. If the vehicle runs, you are good on spark/computer.

If your windows are stopped, I am wondering why you thought computer? Your buddy suggesting timing chain sounds suspect as well.

Sounds like electrical problem or bad fuel pump, start with your ground lead.

Then check for power at electric fuel pump. I am betting on a bad fuel pump.

Fuel pumps go shitty like every other motor, and if you let your fuel tank go dry they will run without the fuel cooling the pump, and that can be enough to kill them for good.

Didn't have an carb cleaner or starting fluid to try that.

The reason I still suspect the cam sensor is the fact that is what controls the injectors. I am getting fuel up the pipe but not into the engine ... that's what lead me to the cam sensor.

[brian]

DAMN do I miss the days of "fuel fire and air" ... these god damn computerized cars are what made me decide to get out of the business in 1999 and I STILL hate them! When I had my shop I had more scanners and books (like "starts but runs funny") and half the time it was still a guess at what the problem was.

........ we'd drive that ... sick and TIRED of these damn computerized abominations!

dude, that's the reason why i drive 20 year old toyotas.
computer stuff, great when everything works as it should. but get some miles and years on the stuff and it can turn into a real nightmare/money pit.
computers are cool, but i like to be the one doing most of the thinking when it comes to cars/trucks......


just wait till it gets to-- "hey car lets go alittle faster." and the little red eye replies, "i'm sorry brian i can't let you do that....."

[fingers80002]

Now you see what I deal with everyday!

BTW, wanna buy my tools and eqiupment?

[normanvin]

I feel for you. I decided to put the new center consul into the tahoe. It did not come with one. So after going to the store to by some splined sockets. i start to disconnect the lighter and power port. First I need to rip apart most of the dash. Then after I can't get the part of the dash I need apart I start working in a small opening to get at the wiring. Of course the catch that holds the plugs in is at the underside of the lighter socket. I manage to spin the one around get the plug disconnectedcted. Then I need to get the other one which is in a smaller space.

plugs are not long enough to reach the lighters in the new one.

Well guess what. All the stores that might have what I need close early on Sundays.

And of course the wife has to ask if the wires hanging out of the dash will electricute her.

[dc dalton]

Now you see what I deal with everyday!

BTW, wanna buy my tools and eqiupment?

Oh you aren't telling me anything ... did it for years, and that's why I don't do that any more.

And tools? No thanks, I have just enough to do the little stuff ... sold all the rest off.

[stephpd]

DC, I feel your pain. I've only got one vehicle with a brain and let me say that it's pretty stupid sometimes. Is there a way, with the ignition switch(off and on a few times) and reading the idiot light to figure out what the computer thinks is the problem? Mine allows that and it sometimes help in narrowing down the problem.

Not sure with 'modern' cars.

I'm of the habit of buying the Chilton manual for every vehicle I own.

This may sound stupid but I'd be trying to find the problem with the windows first. Fuse, fusible link or bad ground can have a detrimental effect on several items all at once. Intermittent opens are the worse.

Wish I could be more help but the newest vehicle I own is a 91 Jeep.

[dc dalton]

Is there a way, with the ignition switch(off and on a few times) and reading the idiot light to figure out what the computer thinks is the problem? Mine allows that and it sometimes help in narrowing down the problem.

I got the code with a scanner ... 361 "EST not toggling" ... but even that takes you down a road of 'maybes'

[Michele]

I'm also feeling your pain!

I just went for 600.00 on Friday on a couple of things. We're still hoping its not the head gasket. UGH!!! We just have to wait and see.

I was hoping it was the "brain". Cheap part and not labor intensive. Its not a brain malfunction.

I really do hate this wait and see shit.