The greater good..

[Frenchy]

If you are antichristian, you probably want to stop reading here.
I certainly am not posting this thread for you to question, this is my way of living, you can disagree with it, but you will not change my mind on it. I am not posting it to get arguments, simply to show how I dealt with a discussion with some one.

A few days back some one at work thought they would stump me. I was talking about wanting to go on day shift so I could get some regular shooting in at night and seeing Virginia Tech just happened, they figured this was a good time to stump me.
First of all, let me say that being a good Christian is not what others think of you, it is a way of life, and it is the knowledge that you are doing the best you can by yourself and others.
The general question asked to Christians with guns is…

“You claim to be a decent Christian, why do you need guns for if you believe in God and his rule that says Thou shall not kill”

Well, my usual first response is… I have guns for sporting purposes, Skeet, target, I don’t think of them as murdering tools… But this time, the person expanded on the subject and said…

“Tell me if you had been in Virginia Tech, would you have shot or preached to the killer?”

I smiled and said it’s the lesser of two evils, for the greater good. Do I shoot some one to save my self and potentially others around me? Or do I run or try to negotiate with this person. The answer is simple; the lesser of two evils is he goes I stay. While I am at it, I try to protect the others around us.

So they replied then you would “Kill” and sin God wouldn’t you, it is after all one of the Ten Commandments to not kill.

I question them what Bible they read, because in my Bible, God sent men to war, he prescribed people would die, he even sent his Son to die on the cross. We all die at some point and as God controls us, we can say in essence, God kills us to bring us home. But the Ten Commandments do not say “thou shall not kill”
Then the real conversation starts, “bob, I read the Bible, and it does say “Thou shall not kill” how can you say it doesn’t?

It is very simple to say the Bible does not say this, because it is true, the Ten Commandments say do not murder, or “Thou shall not murder”. Commandment #6

To kill is to remove a life, be it animal, machine even human, to murder is pre-mediated. I would not walk into a building thinking I will murder some one, but should some one try to murder me, then I will protect my self and others even if this means I have to remove their right to life, so I would kill to protect my self and or others. Not a pre-meditation. If i have a choice between life and death, I chose life, this means I have to stop the agression.
This generally hits the mute buttons on most people, because they did not realize there was a difference between non pre-meditated Killing an act of need to protect ones self and murdering an act of evil.
The lesser of two evils or more commonly said “the greater good” a phrase coined by Spock in Star Trek, is some thing I was thought way back and always tried to live by, If you have a choice, this means there are more then one options. You have the option of what is easy, or what may result in being better.
The people in flight 93 decided to die in the cause of the greater good. They knew the plane was not landing safely, so why not die saving others? Why wait till the plane killed more then just its occupants? Did they murder any one? No although each passenger can say he willingly killed the other passenger, they did it for the greater good. It was a sacrifice.
An old teacher who survived the Nazi camps and was at Vermont tech obviously thought he would do more good by being in front of the bullets then hiding and allowing others to die. Had some one been there with a gun, shooting the killer would probably have saved many of the 32 that died that day, the greater good. Oddly, no one has come to me about my thoughts on protection or my ownership of guns lately. We regularly talk about guns, but no one seems opposed to the fact that I own some. Matter of fact, it got a few people interested in wanting to go out one day to shoot.

[xflyboy]

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good post frenchy completely agree with your point of veiw

[LastManOut]

Good post Frenchy. I've made similar explanation when talking with other combat vets who feel guilt, trying to reconcile war with their faith.

I hope this gets more exposure.

[Atomic Dog]

Very well said! For the record I'm not anti-christian but leaning towards atheist. Doesn't mean that that's not spot on.


Damn that's good!




Brian

[762xIan]

Very good subject Frenchy, and one I pondered as well.

Actually one of our members here (PA PAtriot I think) has an awesome link on this very subject...I borrowed this from a link off of his gunsmithing site found here...

http://http://www.frontlinearmory.com/antis.htm

Either way my feelings on this subject are as follows...

Self defense is the first law of nature.

If you are not religous, or you believe in "Natural" religions, read the above line.

If you believe in God or creator, understand that God expects you to protect the gift of life bestowed on you. Not defending yourself is the equivalent of suicide and suicide is a sin.

Although difficult for modern man to fathom, it was once widely believed that life was a gift from God, that to not defend that life when offered violence was to hold God's gift in contempt, , to be a coward and to breach one's duty to one's community. A sermon given in Philadelphia in 1747 unequivocally equated the failure to defend oneself with suicide:

"He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself."

-End quote-

Pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue.

[ChamberedRound]

Frenchy,

Great post, and a well thought out argument. However, I wanted to point something out to help you defend your argument from those who might challenge your point of view.

When people question you on the 6th Commandment, saying "thou shall not kill", they are partially correct. Some versions of the Bible use the word "kill", while others use the word "murder".

Certain versions of the Bible do print the 6th commandment as you describe. See the following:

New International Version (NIV) - You shall not murder
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=20&version=31

New American Standard Bible - You shall not murder
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=49;

New Living Translation - You must not murder
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=51;

New International Reader's Version - Do not commit murder
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=76;

However, other versions do use the word "kill" as opposed to murder. For example:

King James Version (KJV) - Thou shall not kill
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...20;&version=9;

American Standard Version - Thou shall not kill
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...20;&version=8;

Young's Literal Translation - Thou dost not kill
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=15;

New Life Version - Do not kill other people
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=74;

The point here is that some versions of the Bible translate the Hebrew word to the English word "kill", while other versions translate it to the English word "murder", and in English the two have very different meanings, as you have pointed out. My personal belief from reading the Bible in my youth is that murder is the more appropriate word, as it makes more sense in the context of the Bible at large. When questioned, this might help clarify the intent of the passage.

Just a thought to keep in mind when people argue this point with you. Most people know the 6th Commandment as "Thou shall not kill" because of the KJV, the oldest published English version of the Bible. English at the time of the writing of the KJV was very different than it is today, but many people don't realize that, they just quote it out of context.

[billamj]

Fantastic post Frenchy. There is absolutely nothing that I could say that would add to, or subtract from, your post. It is all a matter of understanding and once again you've shown how well you do.

[PA Dave]

The bible also gives us command over the animals on the earth to clothe feed and sustain us but in order to do this we must "kill" them. Do they not also have "life"? The problem with translation of anything is the word interpretation, and it can be twisted into some distorted views. My father in a drug induced state decided one day that "thou shalt not kill" went full on to mean animals bugs and all.(he never recovered) Utter lunacy! +1 frenchy. If you want to entertain it privately I do have a question of a religious nature but it is not something I'm throwing out for general debate.

[Emptymag]

Also, for those who think they are being smart by posing that question to you, ask them if a rapist, murderer, or common thief will be forgiven for their sins by simply asking it.

Any Christian knows that the murderer WILL be forgiven. Why then, do they think YOU would not?

My guess is that the people who ask the question are really not interested in anything further than trying to make you think that you shouldn't own a gun. Period. They have no interest in your eternal soul... only the banning of firearms.

[crazyyankee]

Great post, it reminds me of when I would listen to Dr. Scott. I always learned something new. Oh and just so you know I'm not anti christian, I am a pagan and follow the Celtic, Teutonic/norse traditions.
I believe every man (read as man, woman or child) has to have a belief system(for lack of a better term). We all may be on the same on the same road, but at different points on that road. True believers of any religion know that when they are in another persons home they show respect to that persons belief, the same as when that person in in your home he should show respect for your beliefs.

I hope I said that correctly.