best inexpensive hunting/target/range rifle?

[Tomcat088]

Very nice gun! Actually I was considering that.

I narrowed it down to 4 models, and just wanted opinions on these:

-Savage 10FP
-Remington 700SPS tactical (like above)
-Tikka T3 Lite
-Howa 1500

I like the Remmy's short (20") barrel, because a .308 won't benefit a huge amount from a longer barrel in terms of velocity. However, will accuracy suffer? . . . . . . .

Out of those, I like the Savage and Remmy for parts and accessories, but the Tikka and Howa are cheaper. The Tikka also is the only one that doesn't have a heavy barrel. Is that a problem? What's constitutes "fast firing" that could heat a lightweight barrel too much?

I don't really want to rate these rifles from 1 to 4 because it's a pretty much opinion based thing. It's pretty obvious from my posts that I prefer the Remington 700 and Savage platform. This isn't to bust on some of the others, and to be honest, I haven't spent enough time shooting the Tikka or Howa to really put out an "honest" opinion of them. I have shot and felt them a little, but not enough that I want to put myself out there, especially since you are basing a buying decision off of it.

In terms of accuracy and a 20" barrel, there are LOTS of people that feel that 20" barrels that are thick actually easier to shoot more accurately. THey definitely do handle a great deal better. The idea that they shoot more accurately is based on a few things. Because they aren't as long, they do not "sag" and don't have as much pressure on the barrel, just from the barrel's own length. Some people also feel that since the barrel is a bit shorter, the bullet doesn't spend as much time in the barrel. The time that it's traveling down the barrel could be time that you move off of target some. I could get into ideas about angles, and how barrel length affects that; but it's not really worth discussing right now. Either way, there are plenty of people that feel shorter barreled rifles can shoot better than their longer barreled counter parts.

Now to answer your firing rate question, it depends on a few things. The diameter of the barrel, whether it's fluted or not, load you are using, bearing surface of the bullets, etc. Generally, even with a heavy barreled rifle, it is considered "fast" to fire a round fasted than 1 every 30 seconds. Notice this is with a HEAVY barreled rifle. Even during precision long range competitions and things like that, rounds are fired at a much faster rate. Either way, during practice, most people are not firing rounds faster than this rate IF they are trying to keep the barrel cool. Firing on warm or hot barrels does affect the barrel life and fouling in the barrel. Especially on the lighter weight barrels, or some that have stress in them; you'll see point of impact string or change as the barrel gets hot. This happens even in heavier barrels, but isn't usually as pronounced, but does still happen. With a lighter contour barrel, most people are gonna say you need to wait at least a minute or a bit more to try to keep the barrel "cool".

I bought a Tikka T3 stainless lite last year for just over $500. I was looking at the Savage, Howa, and Tikka. There didn't seem to be a whole lot of difference in 'feel' to me but the Tikka definitely had the smoothest operating bolt. I did think the Savage was kind of ugly and the Howa stock felt a bit 'clubby'. Some folks knock Tikka over the 'plastic' magazine but mine has held up just fine. Also, they don't have a short action, they use 'blocks' to adjust for short or long cartridges. . . . . .

. . . . I bought my son a Rem 700 SPS about 2 years ago. Seems alright so far but I don't like the fact that the bolt doesn't lock down.

Dale

I do agree that out of all the actions that have been mentioned, the Tikka does have a smoother bolt operation than the Savage or Remington. You should also keep in mind that this does not necessarily mean that it's a better tactical rifle, merely that the action is smoother. All actions will smooth out as the metal parts get polished. You should keep in mind that smoother bolt operation can sometimes be related to tighter tolerances in the bolt raceway. Tighter tolerances can also mean that the rifle will not function as well as another with "more lax" tolerance IF the rifle were to get very dirty (from gun powder, debris, dirt, etc). This may or may not be an issue with the Tikka's, as I said I don't have experience with it. Part of whether it will be an issue also has to do with whether you'll be lugging it around in the woods, dragging it along, or just taking it to the bench. There is a reason that not many BR actions are used for tactical rifles. I know lots of people that also think that the savage rifles are ugly. I used to think the same thing, but over the years they have started to grow on me alot more; especially as I understand more and more how serviceable they are.

You should keep in mind when consider the Tikka and Howa actions, that if you want to later upgrade these rifles, you're going to be SEVERLY limited. You will be limited in the aftermarket options, harder to find triggers, stocks, sometimes scope rings or mounts, etc. You will even be limited on gunsmith options. Just about any smith can customize a Remington 700 and make it shoot, IF they will take the time to do it properly. There are TONS of smiths that have no problem with doing the same with a Savage. You ask some smiths to blue print and accurize a Tikka or Howa, and some of them will flat out tell you that they won't do it. Many of them don't even want to mess with fitting a custom barrel on one. Others might tell you that they have never done one before, but they know what they "should" do, but your rifle will be their first. That's not too comforting. Realize that the Remmy or Savage may or may not cost more, but when you're talking about customizing a Tikka or Howa later on (after you learn to shoot), it may be WAY more expensive. So much so that you may just end up buying a Remington 700 or Savage to customize; if this is the case then you kind of lose that base investment in the other rifle if you're not going to shoot it much anymore. If you are, then it's not really a loss, and just another rifle to add to your stock; it's still something to consider.

What do you mean exactly by "the bolt doesn't lock down"? Do you mean that when the rifle is on safety, the bolt can still be raised? The old Remington 700's came with the safeties this way. I actually change it on my custom rifle because I wanted the option to be able to unload my rifle while it was still on safety. This is kind of a preference thing really. If you are interested in making it so that the bolt stays locked down while the safety is engaged it's a very easy remedy. If you're comfortable removing the barreled action from the stock and adding a little piece of metal to the trigger(can be purchased aftermarket), then your bolt will stay closed when the safety is engaged. I would also counter this question with, do the other actions allow you to use the "half closed" safety option that lots of Remington 700 shooters use? I know for a fact that the Savage and Winchester actions do NOT allow for this, so do NOT try to do it. I haven't tried it on a Tikka or Howa, but it's something else to consider too if we're getting down to some of the finer details.

[Fr0sty]

I don't really want to rate these rifles from 1 to 4 because it's a pretty much opinion based thing. It's pretty obvious from my posts that I prefer the Remington 700 and Savage platform. This isn't to bust on some of the others, and to be honest, I haven't spent enough time shooting the Tikka or Howa to really put out an "honest" opinion of them. I have shot and felt them a little, but not enough that I want to put myself out there, especially since you are basing a buying decision off of it.

In terms of accuracy and a 20" barrel, there are LOTS of people that feel that 20" barrels that are thick actually easier to shoot more accurately. THey definitely do handle a great deal better. The idea that they shoot more accurately is based on a few things. Because they aren't as long, they do not "sag" and don't have as much pressure on the barrel, just from the barrel's own length. Some people also feel that since the barrel is a bit shorter, the bullet doesn't spend as much time in the barrel. The time that it's traveling down the barrel could be time that you move off of target some. I could get into ideas about angles, and how barrel length affects that; but it's not really worth discussing right now. Either way, there are plenty of people that feel shorter barreled rifles can shoot better than their longer barreled counter parts.

Now to answer your firing rate question, it depends on a few things. The diameter of the barrel, whether it's fluted or not, load you are using, bearing surface of the bullets, etc. Generally, even with a heavy barreled rifle, it is considered "fast" to fire a round fasted than 1 every 30 seconds. Notice this is with a HEAVY barreled rifle. Even during precision long range competitions and things like that, rounds are fired at a much faster rate. Either way, during practice, most people are not firing rounds faster than this rate IF they are trying to keep the barrel cool. Firing on warm or hot barrels does affect the barrel life and fouling in the barrel. Especially on the lighter weight barrels, or some that have stress in them; you'll see point of impact string or change as the barrel gets hot. This happens even in heavier barrels, but isn't usually as pronounced, but does still happen. With a lighter contour barrel, most people are gonna say you need to wait at least a minute or a bit more to try to keep the barrel "cool".



I do agree that out of all the actions that have been mentioned, the Tikka does have a smoother bolt operation than the Savage or Remington. You should also keep in mind that this does not necessarily mean that it's a better tactical rifle, merely that the action is smoother. All actions will smooth out as the metal parts get polished. You should keep in mind that smoother bolt operation can sometimes be related to tighter tolerances in the bolt raceway. Tighter tolerances can also mean that the rifle will not function as well as another with "more lax" tolerance IF the rifle were to get very dirty (from gun powder, debris, dirt, etc). This may or may not be an issue with the Tikka's, as I said I don't have experience with it. Part of whether it will be an issue also has to do with whether you'll be lugging it around in the woods, dragging it along, or just taking it to the bench. There is a reason that not many BR actions are used for tactical rifles. I know lots of people that also think that the savage rifles are ugly. I used to think the same thing, but over the years they have started to grow on me alot more; especially as I understand more and more how serviceable they are.

You should keep in mind when consider the Tikka and Howa actions, that if you want to later upgrade these rifles, you're going to be SEVERLY limited. You will be limited in the aftermarket options, harder to find triggers, stocks, sometimes scope rings or mounts, etc. You will even be limited on gunsmith options. Just about any smith can customize a Remington 700 and make it shoot, IF they will take the time to do it properly. There are TONS of smiths that have no problem with doing the same with a Savage. You ask some smiths to blue print and accurize a Tikka or Howa, and some of them will flat out tell you that they won't do it. Many of them don't even want to mess with fitting a custom barrel on one. Others might tell you that they have never done one before, but they know what they "should" do, but your rifle will be their first. That's not too comforting. Realize that the Remmy or Savage may or may not cost more, but when you're talking about customizing a Tikka or Howa later on (after you learn to shoot), it may be WAY more expensive. So much so that you may just end up buying a Remington 700 or Savage to customize; if this is the case then you kind of lose that base investment in the other rifle if you're not going to shoot it much anymore. If you are, then it's not really a loss, and just another rifle to add to your stock; it's still something to consider.

What do you mean exactly by "the bolt doesn't lock down"? Do you mean that when the rifle is on safety, the bolt can still be raised? The old Remington 700's came with the safeties this way. I actually change it on my custom rifle because I wanted the option to be able to unload my rifle while it was still on safety. This is kind of a preference thing really. If you are interested in making it so that the bolt stays locked down while the safety is engaged it's a very easy remedy. If you're comfortable removing the barreled action from the stock and adding a little piece of metal to the trigger(can be purchased aftermarket), then your bolt will stay closed when the safety is engaged. I would also counter this question with, do the other actions allow you to use the "half closed" safety option that lots of Remington 700 shooters use? I know for a fact that the Savage and Winchester actions do NOT allow for this, so do NOT try to do it. I haven't tried it on a Tikka or Howa, but it's something else to consider too if we're getting down to some of the finer details.

Excellent post and well balanced.

Tomcat, the more we keep crossing paths on this forum, the more interested I become in reading your replies. Keep them coming

PS> Have you had any rifle time with that Millet?

[dk99358]

I do agree that out of all the actions that have been mentioned, the Tikka does have a smoother bolt operation than the Savage or Remington. You should also keep in mind that this does not necessarily mean that it's a better tactical rifle, merely that the action is smoother. All actions will smooth out as the metal parts get polished. You should keep in mind that smoother bolt operation can sometimes be related to tighter tolerances in the bolt raceway. Tighter tolerances can also mean that the rifle will not function as well as another with "more lax" tolerance IF the rifle were to get very dirty (from gun powder, debris, dirt, etc). This may or may not be an issue with the Tikka's, as I said I don't have experience with it. Part of whether it will be an issue also has to do with whether you'll be lugging it around in the woods, dragging it along, or just taking it to the bench. There is a reason that not many BR actions are used for tactical rifles. I know lots of people that also think that the savage rifles are ugly. I used to think the same thing, but over the years they have started to grow on me alot more; especially as I understand more and more how serviceable they are.

You should keep in mind when consider the Tikka and Howa actions, that if you want to later upgrade these rifles, you're going to be SEVERLY limited. You will be limited in the aftermarket options, harder to find triggers, stocks, sometimes scope rings or mounts, etc. You will even be limited on gunsmith options. Just about any smith can customize a Remington 700 and make it shoot, IF they will take the time to do it properly. There are TONS of smiths that have no problem with doing the same with a Savage. You ask some smiths to blue print and accurize a Tikka or Howa, and some of them will flat out tell you that they won't do it. Many of them don't even want to mess with fitting a custom barrel on one. Others might tell you that they have never done one before, but they know what they "should" do, but your rifle will be their first. That's not too comforting. Realize that the Remmy or Savage may or may not cost more, but when you're talking about customizing a Tikka or Howa later on (after you learn to shoot), it may be WAY more expensive. So much so that you may just end up buying a Remington 700 or Savage to customize; if this is the case then you kind of lose that base investment in the other rifle if you're not going to shoot it much anymore. If you are, then it's not really a loss, and just another rifle to add to your stock; it's still something to consider.

What do you mean exactly by "the bolt doesn't lock down"? Do you mean that when the rifle is on safety, the bolt can still be raised? The old Remington 700's came with the safeties this way. I actually change it on my custom rifle because I wanted the option to be able to unload my rifle while it was still on safety. This is kind of a preference thing really. If you are interested in making it so that the bolt stays locked down while the safety is engaged it's a very easy remedy. If you're comfortable removing the barreled action from the stock and adding a little piece of metal to the trigger(can be purchased aftermarket), then your bolt will stay closed when the safety is engaged. I would also counter this question with, do the other actions allow you to use the "half closed" safety option that lots of Remington 700 shooters use? I know for a fact that the Savage and Winchester actions do NOT allow for this, so do NOT try to do it. I haven't tried it on a Tikka or Howa, but it's something else to consider too if we're getting down to some of the finer details.

Keeping the bolt closed like the old 700's is what I was referring to. I don't want to lose a shot opportunity because the bolt came open while I was crawling thru the brush.

I knew the current 700's could be modified but I thought you needed a groove in the bolt for the trigger extension (for lack of a better term) to fit into and prevent rotation.

I can't argue that there are more aftermarket accessories and gunsmithing tricks for the Savage or Remington but for a deer hunting rig, are they necessary? My Tikka puts 3 shots into one inch with the very first handload I tried. I picked a powder and bullet, worked up to book max and had a perfectly acceptable deer load. I didn't experiment with other primers or seating depth or anything like that. I'm sure the gun will do better if I do more extensive load development but if I don't, I've still got a darn fine load.

IMO, when you start doing all that 'gunsmithing' stuff, you spend a lot of money and don't gain much. Better to stay with a fairly stock rifle for hunting and build a separate 'tweaked' rifle for target shooting if the OP feels the hunting one isn't good enough for the target shooting he does.

Couple of other items: Tikka's come with rings and bases. Saves a few bucks. If you don't like them, they are also drilled for Weaver bases. Another rifle choice is the Weatherby Vanguard. It's the same action as the Howa but Weatherby has a standard line in the requested price range and a Sub-MOA line for a bit more money. My latest Grice flier lists them at 779 for blue, 899 for stainless.

Dale

[1990dtgl98]

Tomcat: Very informative posts! Very good advice and I got a lot of info and things to think about while reading everything.

I weighed my choices, and found my rifle.

I decided on the Remington 700 SPS tactical. For a few reasons.

1.) There was nowhere to get a good feel for the Tikka T3 and Howa 1500. Perhaps a really large store, like Calebas, would have them, but then that limits my ability to get things or have work done at local gunsmiths.

2.) I plan on leaving the rifle stock for about 2-3 years till I really get into long distance range and target competitions. With that said, the Savage was nice, but the 700 tactical had a tremendously better stock IMO. The Remmy X-pro trigger actually felt about the same as the Savage. Though is supposed to be more owner friendly to adjust over the original Remmy trigger, it isn't quite as good as the Savage. Stock for stock, they felt about the same in pull length and weight and reset distance though

3.) Reading info, the 20" barrel seems to serve my purpose twofold. It is smaller and easier to maneuver while hunting, and it seems the .308 also likes a shorter barrel. Seems you don't loose much in velocity becuase the .308 poweder is fast burning, yet the shorter barrel reduces vibration, and can actually be more accurate out to 600 yards. When I do start shooting 100 yards and the barrel may be a hinderance, I will probably already have a better match grade barrel.

4.) Better grip, more aftermarket availability, andddddddd.....about 40 bucks cheaper. That sealed the deal for me.

Now, I just gotta hope its there till Wednesday (when I get paid for selling some car parts). Only 1 left, and I ain't telling where!

[ReconLdr]

I have a Remi 700 SPS Tactical the stock is the same as the varmint except the SPS Tactical Stock is Pillar Bedded while the SPS and Varmint Stock is not. (this is as was explained to me)

You say that you have a SPS Tactical, but the stock in the picture looks like an SPS Varmint. I have a tactical on layaway right now in .308.

I believe the Pic you posted is a Remi 700 PSS Tactical. The stock is definately from a 700 PSS. Or the 700 Tactical (SPS, PSS etc..) could have had stock swapped/upgraded. Which is on my wish list, I am thinking of going with a Mil Spec 5R stock as my next upgrade to my rifle.

Here is what I think of when someone says a Remmy 700 tactical.

[Tomcat088]

Keeping the bolt closed like the old 700's is what I was referring to. I don't want to lose a shot opportunity because the bolt came open while I was crawling thru the brush.

I knew the current 700's could be modified but I thought you needed a groove in the bolt for the trigger extension (for lack of a better term) to fit into and prevent rotation.

I can't argue that there are more aftermarket accessories and gunsmithing tricks for the Savage or Remington but for a deer hunting rig, are they necessary? My Tikka puts 3 shots into one inch with the very first handload I tried. I picked a powder and bullet, worked up to book max and had a perfectly acceptable deer load. I didn't experiment with other primers or seating depth or anything like that. I'm sure the gun will do better if I do more extensive load development but if I don't, I've still got a darn fine load.

IMO, when you start doing all that 'gunsmithing' stuff, you spend a lot of money and don't gain much. Better to stay with a fairly stock rifle for hunting and build a separate 'tweaked' rifle for target shooting if the OP feels the hunting one isn't good enough for the target shooting he does.

Couple of other items: Tikka's come with rings and bases. Saves a few bucks. If you don't like them, they are also drilled for Weaver bases. Another rifle choice is the Weatherby Vanguard. It's the same action as the Howa but Weatherby has a standard line in the requested price range and a Sub-MOA line for a bit more money. My latest Grice flier lists them at 779 for blue, 899 for stainless.

Dale

Ok, I get what you mean about the bolt staying closed now. I personally don't like to crawl or go through the brush with one in the chamber and the bolt all the way down on my rifle even if it is on safe. I prefer to not have one in the chamber or have the bolt up and the rifle on safety. That way I don't have any risk of a discharged, and it's easy to push the bolt the halfway down when I get the deer in the sights. I haven't looked at it too in depth about adding the "trigger extension" in, because I took it out of mine. I don't remember there being any groove that it went into but I'll try to look soon.

I agree that 1" groups at 100 yards is definitely acceptable for a deer rifle, although that's not the only thing that the OP talked about doing with the rifle. Most tactical shootes that stretch out to 500 and beyond prefer a rifle that shoots under 1 minute of angle. There is also quite a difference between measuring 3 shot groups and 5 shot groups. Some rifles that will put 3 in 1" at 100 yards, won't do it with 5 consistently. I don't like to shoot the hottest loads, but I don't usually just drag out a rifle a couple of times a year. So for my applications, saving the barrel life and dialing an extra click isn't that big of a deal. I agree that the tikkas are fine rifles, I was just thinking that most of the ones I had seen were out of the OP's budget. Apparently he's already decided on the rifle though, so no biggy.

[Tomcat088]

Tomcat: Very informative posts! Very good advice and I got a lot of info and things to think about while reading everything.

I weighed my choices, and found my rifle.

I decided on the Remington 700 SPS tactical. For a few reasons.

1.) There was nowhere to get a good feel for the Tikka T3 and Howa 1500. Perhaps a really large store, like Calebas, would have them, but then that limits my ability to get things or have work done at local gunsmiths.

2.) I plan on leaving the rifle stock for about 2-3 years till I really get into long distance range and target competitions. With that said, the Savage was nice, but the 700 tactical had a tremendously better stock IMO. The Remmy X-pro trigger actually felt about the same as the Savage. Though is supposed to be more owner friendly to adjust over the original Remmy trigger, it isn't quite as good as the Savage. Stock for stock, they felt about the same in pull length and weight and reset distance though

3.) Reading info, the 20" barrel seems to serve my purpose twofold. It is smaller and easier to maneuver while hunting, and it seems the .308 also likes a shorter barrel. Seems you don't loose much in velocity becuase the .308 poweder is fast burning, yet the shorter barrel reduces vibration, and can actually be more accurate out to 600 yards. When I do start shooting 100 yards and the barrel may be a hinderance, I will probably already have a better match grade barrel.

4.) Better grip, more aftermarket availability, andddddddd.....about 40 bucks cheaper. That sealed the deal for me.

Now, I just gotta hope its there till Wednesday (when I get paid for selling some car parts). Only 1 left, and I ain't telling where!

I'm glad that you found the post so useful. It sounds like you're getting a pretty good deal on the Remington. I hope that later you won't have any problems with your xmark trigger, but it wouldn't surprise me if you do later. Either way, if it doesn't then you don't have to worry about it, but if it does it's an easy fix.

Now about your point for the 20" barrel, I have a few thoughts and things to say. For your purposes, the 20" barrel is going to serve you well. I wouldn't go as far to say that the .308 likes a 20" barrel though, or that it necessarily shoots better in a 20" barrel. In terms of velocity loss, that will depend on lots of things, especially on which powder you're shooting and the optimum burn length for that powder. The .308 doesn't necessarily shoot "fast burning" powders, powder selection depends on lots of things. If you try to throw some Varget behind a 180 or 190 grain bullet, and you won't get very good velocity. But if you throw some H4350 behind a 180 grain bullet with a longer barrel, you can get some velocity on it. With a 20" barrel, you're probably not going to be able to build up sufficient pressure. Either way you probably weren't wanting to shoot 180 or heavier bullets out of a .308 anyway. Either way, the caliber isn't what usually determines the best powder; it's usually tied more to barrel length, bullet weight, accuracy, temperature sensitivity, ease of flow in the measure, etc.

Either way, I hope that the rifle is still there when you get paid. I know that you'll enjoy any of these rifles. Good luck.

[1990dtgl98]

I'm glad that you found the post so useful. It sounds like you're getting a pretty good deal on the Remington. I hope that later you won't have any problems with your xmark trigger, but it wouldn't surprise me if you do later. Either way, if it doesn't then you don't have to worry about it, but if it does it's an easy fix.

Now about your point for the 20" barrel, I have a few thoughts and things to say. For your purposes, the 20" barrel is going to serve you well. I wouldn't go as far to say that the .308 likes a 20" barrel though, or that it necessarily shoots better in a 20" barrel. In terms of velocity loss, that will depend on lots of things, especially on which powder you're shooting and the optimum burn length for that powder. The .308 doesn't necessarily shoot "fast burning" powders, powder selection depends on lots of things. If you try to throw some Varget behind a 180 or 190 grain bullet, and you won't get very good velocity. But if you throw some H4350 behind a 180 grain bullet with a longer barrel, you can get some velocity on it. With a 20" barrel, you're probably not going to be able to build up sufficient pressure. Either way you probably weren't wanting to shoot 180 or heavier bullets out of a .308 anyway. Either way, the caliber isn't what usually determines the best powder; it's usually tied more to barrel length, bullet weight, accuracy, temperature sensitivity, ease of flow in the measure, etc.

Either way, I hope that the rifle is still there when you get paid. I know that you'll enjoy any of these rifles. Good luck.

Correct. But looking at http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm and other opinions, it seems that if you aren't reloading, the 20" seems to be suited for the 168gr range using match ammo. From most reviews I read, using a 168gr or 150gr will not affect distance or velocity too much with the shorter barrel (again, not handloading). Again, I won't be doing 1000 yard shoots with this next week. So the whole velocity/distance arguement with the barrel length is moot for a while. The 600 yard shooting I will do most likely won't be even marginally affected by the sub 100fps I'd loose buying cheap ammo.

That and I also read up this in an article that states:

"There isn't any clear-cut answer as to how much velocity will be lost per inch of barrel length reduction. The amount of loss is closely tied to the expansion ratio. As previously noted, the type and amount of powder, as well as the weight and bearing length of the bullet, also play a major part. Rifles with high expansion ratios (smaller calibers) tend to lose less velocity than rifles with low expansion ratios (larger calibers).

During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds were fired at each increment. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168-grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of a law enforcement standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps). "

The biggest and hardest part for me was justifying spending 570, when I could get the well reviewed Mossberg 4x4 for 410 shipped and Marlin XL/XS7 for about 300 shipped.

However, in the end, I figured without being able to get a feel for them, and with them being relatively "new," it was worth the extra 200-300 just for the larger fan base (read= easier attainability of parts/gunsmiths to work on them), the better maneuverability with a 20" barrel, and the idea that I might kick myself now for spending more in this economy, but my kick myself more/longer if I bought one of the others and always had that "what if" thought process.

[daveboone]

Weatherby Vanguard (Japan made) comes with a target from the factory with sub MOA groupings at 150yds. I own a .300 WBY Mag. because it was on clearance at Wal-Mart of all places...$390. The trigger is sweet and consistent, the power is incredible, and if it wasn't so damn expensive to shoot it would be fun! They come in all normal calibers...find the most economical and you won't be disappointed.