Well it finally happened...

[sprrdhawk44]

Realistically if this is all it takes for him to leave, he wouldn't have lasted another week. I expected much worse to be thrown at him.

[Sniper061]

Sergeant, I for one wish that you wouldn't leave. One thing you have to understand is that many people in this group have spent countless hours studying the law paying particular attention to how it is written in regards to firearms. Also, many people in this section have had rather poor experiences with LEOs at one time or another and it usually relates to the LEOs either not knowing the law or not caring about it. You, as a LEO, automatically become an outlet for some of these people to vent to about the problems they have had and the continuing problems that they see in the law enforcement community. The criticism that has been leveled at you here shouldn't be taken as a personal attack. It is simply the result of what you have stated about the Sales database, training, etc. shows that many LEOs don't know the ins and outs of the PA system.

I think that you could learn a lot from the people on this forum and I also think some people (I'm looking at you streaker) need to just chill and try to teach you something instead of coming across like they are yelling at you about something. The simple fact that you made an appearance here proves that you are looking for the pertinent information and you should be congratulated and encouraged for doing so, not chastised.

[Justin]

I would expect someone that has apparently achieved the rank of Sergeant to know how the system works and to know what he's using as well as the laws that he's sworn to uphold. So far, all I've seen from him is that he doesn't know those things, but what's worse is that he's also training new officers.

LOL.

To expect anyone to memorize all of the "laws that he's sworn to uphold" in this, or any state is utterly ridiculous and unreasonable.

Here is title 18 (crimes and offenses)of the PA Consolidated Statutes. Add to that any municipal ordnances or statutes, department policies, Title 74(transportation/motor vehicles), Title 2, Title 13, Title 23, Title 44, the Constitution, etc... and you've got more data than any human brain could ever keep track of. And then you can also add the PA code into the mix.

I can guarantee you that given 5 years, and all of PA's statutes to pour over constantly, that at the end of those 5 years you could not memorize even 1% of them(unless you are some sort of savant, where you may possibly be able to memorize approximately 1%, which would take days to recount). Granted, many of these statutes/laws/codes/ordnances are obscure and not very relevant, however, expecting anyone to memorize them all is purely asinine.

He does not realize that many members here are more educated and versed in the Law than he ever will be.

I find that statement to be exaggerated, and possibly very arrogant. I'm sure that regarding laws pertaining to firearms and their use, you are correct. However, such laws probably account for less than .05%, or 1/2000th of all of the statutes, codes, and laws on the book that would be relevant to a police officer's duties.

While it is possible that "many" here are more versed in laws pertaining to firearms and their use, I find it very unlikely that more than a very select few know much about the other 99.99%+ of the law.

[DaveM55]

Well I think I made a mistake posting here. I was just interested in showing my support for people who oc but it seems I just caused controversy. I do want to say this ..... I have NOT taught my officers anything wrong. What I teach them is how to approach law abiding people who oc. I do not teach them about where registration info comes from or why the law is the law, they need only know how to properly enforce it and that is what they do and what I did this day three years ago. I did learn one thing here....no matter how hard you try when you are a cop you are wrong and there are plenty of people who will tell you so. There are no shortage of radical paranoid people who fear govt and police and will always see them as the enemy....even when the individual police officer believes in what they do. I"m a gun owner and a family man, I will one day retire and be an open carry citizen myself....but I will respect police like my parents taught me. I will also defend my rights to be armed. Good luck with your group and for those that have the best of intentions ....keep lobbying and defending our rights, you are true Americans. For those that just are anti police well I can only say I hope one day you can live without fear of those that work hard to protect our communities. This is my last post, I will be cancelling my subscription.

Sorry to see you go but I fully understand.

[customloaded]

LOL.

To expect anyone to memorize all of the "laws that he's sworn to uphold" in this, or any state is utterly ridiculous and unreasonable.

Here is title 18 (crimes and offenses)of the PA Consolidated Statutes. Add to that any municipal ordnances or statutes, department policies, Title 74(transportation/motor vehicles), Title 2, Title 13, Title 23, Title 44, the Constitution, etc... and you've got more data than any human brain could ever keep track of. And then you can also add the PA code into the mix.

I can guarantee you that given 5 years, and all of PA's statutes to pour over constantly, that at the end of those 5 years you could not memorize even 1% of them(unless you are some sort of savant, where you may possibly be able to memorize approximately 1%, which would take days to recount). Granted, many of these statutes/laws/codes/ordnances are obscure and not very relevant, however, expecting anyone to memorize them all is purely asinine.




I find that statement to be exaggerated, and possibly very arrogant. I'm sure that regarding laws pertaining to firearms and their use, you are correct. However, such laws probably account for less than .05%, or 1/2000th of all of the statutes, codes, and laws on the book that would be relevant to a police officer's duties.

While it is possible that "many" here are more versed in laws pertaining to firearms and their use, I find it very unlikely that more than a very select few know much about the other 99.99%+ of the law.

You make my point...thank you. This is a gun forum and a good portion of the negativity of LE comes from people who are law abiding citizens who end up meeting the bottom of the barrel 10% of cops who don't know firearm laws.
As you say, .05% of law deal with Firearms, very small, one would think the officer would have some chance of knowing most of them, right?

Why would we as gun owners concern ourself with knowing the indepth knowledge of criminal laws pertaining to embezzlement, fraud, or other complex ponzi schemes? We are gun owner's, not wanna be attorneys and therefore, we know a great deal about "GUN LAWS." So, why can't s beat cop? Or detective? Or god forbid, a Supervisor on police dept USA?

My years in Law Enforcement taught me alot. My years in college taught me some more. I learned just as much from the criminals and defense attorney's than I did in college, the academy, and life on the street. It's one hell of an education let me assure. But, I will tell you this, I learned more about the UFA right here on this site than any place else in my formal educational pursuits and definately more than the Academy, FTO program, and mandatory training hours every year!

CL
CL

[customloaded]

Well I think I made a mistake posting here. I was just interested in showing my support for people who oc but it seems I just caused controversy. I do want to say this ..... I have NOT taught my officers anything wrong. What I teach them is how to approach law abiding people who oc. I do not teach them about where registration info comes from or why the law is the law, they need only know how to properly enforce it and that is what they do and what I did this day three years ago. I did learn one thing here....no matter how hard you try when you are a cop you are wrong and there are plenty of people who will tell you so. There are no shortage of radical paranoid people who fear govt and police and will always see them as the enemy....even when the individual police officer believes in what they do. I"m a gun owner and a family man, I will one day retire and be an open carry citizen myself....but I will respect police like my parents taught me. I will also defend my rights to be armed. Good luck with your group and for those that have the best of intentions ....keep lobbying and defending our rights, you are true Americans. For those that just are anti police well I can only say I hope one day you can live without fear of those that work hard to protect our communities. This is my last post, I will be cancelling my subscription.

Well, it's a free country and boy jove, you are free to do as you wish, MOSTLY. However, as I said before, I think you ought to stay. Most cops who join here don't stay long. They do not have the level headedness for this site, are thugs with badges, or can't handle getting ripped into for ignorant posts.
However, there are a few former (myself Included) Officers, couple active officers, and a few retired officers from local, state, and federal agencies that post regularily. What they have done is similated into the group. They sat back and watched, learned, and saw the dynmanic of the group before jumping in. I understand what you said. I can definately see your point of view but I also ask that you hang around and read some of the most horrific stories of PA Cops and how they treat citizens, all across the state. You work for one agency that has a good reputation. That is not the norm. I'm sure you've seen the Dayton Ohio cop video's. Let me tell ya, there are many just like him running around PA, they just haven't been caught. Some of the members here have unfortunately meet officer's of that caliber and have suffered greatly at the hands of the "LAW."

There are a few here who absolutely despise LEO. Hell, I was a cop and I don't trust cops, generally. How do you expect citizens to trust cops when on a daily basis we are bombarded with "Officer raped a ????, Officer arrested for murder, Officer arrested for theft, officer arrested for killing man, officer caught in sting, officer took confiscated drugs and resold them and on and on and on. DAILY across this state much less Country. It creates exactly what the media wants to create, a negative mindset against police officers with division being the #1 problem. Divide and conquer.

It surely doesn't help when there are Police Forums where cops openly state "If I see any carrying a gun, legal or not, I'll blow their F'n head off!" And we pay the guys salary? Really?

I think you see my point. Is it an uphill, pr battle? Absolutely. Can it be overturned? Yes. Can you earn the respect of the members here and in turn, they would fight for you tooth and nail to the end, yes? But only you can make the decision to either hang in there, get a true feel of the place, or tuck tail and run. Yes, it could be time consuming, and frustrating at times, but if you change the opinion of one person who hates cops, isn't it worth it?

CL

[ByblosHex]

Well I think I made a mistake posting here. I was just interested in showing my support for people who oc but it seems I just caused controversy. I do want to say this ..... I have NOT taught my officers anything wrong. What I teach them is how to approach law abiding people who oc. I do not teach them about where registration info comes from or why the law is the law, they need only know how to properly enforce it and that is what they do and what I did this day three years ago. I did learn one thing here....no matter how hard you try when you are a cop you are wrong and there are plenty of people who will tell you so. There are no shortage of radical paranoid people who fear govt and police and will always see them as the enemy....even when the individual police officer believes in what they do. I"m a gun owner and a family man, I will one day retire and be an open carry citizen myself....but I will respect police like my parents taught me. I will also defend my rights to be armed. Good luck with your group and for those that have the best of intentions ....keep lobbying and defending our rights, you are true Americans. For those that just are anti police well I can only say I hope one day you can live without fear of those that work hard to protect our communities. This is my last post, I will be cancelling my subscription.

Don't take it personally. It's a public forum and like any other is full of people who don't know how to communicate with other human beings.

[streaker69]

Well I think I made a mistake posting here. I was just interested in showing my support for people who oc but it seems I just caused controversy. I do want to say this ..... I have NOT taught my officers anything wrong. What I teach them is how to approach law abiding people who oc. I do not teach them about where registration info comes from or why the law is the law, they need only know how to properly enforce it and that is what they do and what I did this day three years ago. I did learn one thing here....no matter how hard you try when you are a cop you are wrong and there are plenty of people who will tell you so. There are no shortage of radical paranoid people who fear govt and police and will always see them as the enemy....even when the individual police officer believes in what they do. I"m a gun owner and a family man, I will one day retire and be an open carry citizen myself....but I will respect police like my parents taught me. I will also defend my rights to be armed. Good luck with your group and for those that have the best of intentions ....keep lobbying and defending our rights, you are true Americans. For those that just are anti police well I can only say I hope one day you can live without fear of those that work hard to protect our communities. This is my last post, I will be cancelling my subscription.

Wow, and you're a cop with a skin that thin. So much for any of your previous statements. So, we've pointed out to you where you were wrong in your thinking. Instead of taking that under consideration you choose to run away.

You say you haven't taught any of your new officers anything wrong, I would disagree if you're teaching them that when you enter a car the firearm is "concealed", as has been pointed out by Twency in this thread with the exact part of the UFA. You didn't understand the law, but you continued to teach it. I also hadn't realized that pointing out where the police are wrong is considered "being radical".

Go ahead run away.

[streaker69]

LOL.

To expect anyone to memorize all of the "laws that he's sworn to uphold" in this, or any state is utterly ridiculous and unreasonable.

Here is title 18 (crimes and offenses)of the PA Consolidated Statutes. Add to that any municipal ordnances or statutes, department policies, Title 74(transportation/motor vehicles), Title 2, Title 13, Title 23, Title 44, the Constitution, etc... and you've got more data than any human brain could ever keep track of. And then you can also add the PA code into the mix.

Let me ask you something. If you were to get caught carrying a loaded firearm (handgun) in you car without an LTCF and you didn't meet one of the exceptions for carrying, do you think this officer would have arrested you if you told him you didn't know that wasn't allowed? Is ignorance of the law any excuse?

Why should we give those that are employed BY US any leeway to claim ignorance of the law? It's their job to know the law they're currently enforcing against us.

[volanova]

Wow, and you're a cop with a skin that thin. So much for any of your previous statements. So, we've pointed out to you where you were wrong in your thinking. Instead of taking that under consideration you choose to run away.

You say you haven't taught any of your new officers anything wrong, I would disagree if you're teaching them that when you enter a car the firearm is "concealed", as has been pointed out by Twency in this thread with the exact part of the UFA. You didn't understand the law, but you continued to teach it. I also hadn't realized that pointing out where the police are wrong is considered "being radical".

Go ahead run away.

I don't think it's a matter of running away, it's a matter of "Well, first post and I'm jumped all over...this is doing no good." I'm not sure if I would have stayed if my first post had been assaulted as such. Instead of calmly explaining why he was incorrect, the first things were "I CALL BULLSHIT!" and throwing around accusations of intentional misconduct.

Would you stick around if that was your welcome?