Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 84
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    in a house, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
    Posts
    238
    Rep Power
    35

    Default Open Carry Incident at Target World

    I just had my first open carry incident, at a very large gun store no less, I will try to keep this short and to the point. First off, let me say I don't open carry often due to uneducated people of authority, frankly I don't have the money to fight in court, at this point in my life so I try to avoid this by carrying concealed 97% of the time. I usually only open carry to my barber shop and to the range on occasion.

    Anyway, I made plans to take my uncle shooting today, he wants to buy a gun for home protection(he had a late night intruder outside of his house recently). This is the 2nd time I took him shooting and he wants to narrow down a gun since he will probably only own 1 gun for the rest of his life(most likely imo). I was to meet him at Target World in Chalfont, PA(Montgomery County/Bucks County border). I decided to open carry today which is semi unusual for me. I decided to open carry my Beretta PX4 Storm because today was not cold enough for a jacket, and I wanted to tuck in my shirt. On the way to Target World I stopped at a gas station to pick up a pack of gum, there were no issues there, the guy did not mention anything to me, and away I went to Target World. Me and my uncle walked in, he rented a Sig 226 DA/SA(very nice gun btw, I enjoyed shooting it) 9mm.

    We shot for about an hour and before we left we went upstairs to their showroom so he could look at some Sig 226 prices. As we are bending down looking at some Sigs, a employee who was behind the desk said to me "Are you a police officer?". I said "No". He then said "Unless your a cop you cannot open carry, it's illegal". At this point I was not looking for a heated discussion because I did not want to get kicked out since my uncle was busy looking at some guns to purchase. I told him "Your wrong, but I will conceal it anyway". I then walked over to look at some Beretta's, and I overheard a guy(who happens to have been an attorney who teaches instructors who teach NRA classes and shooting classes). He was talking to a different employee behind the counter. They were discussing some laws. I jumped in and said "Let me ask you guys something". "Is open carry legal in PA?" Both looked at me strangely like they never heard of such a thing. I told the employee that "Another employee just told me I had to conceal my open gun because I am not a police officer". To my dismay both argued that open carry was illegal and then went on telling me how concealed carry has it's advantages. I told them both that I am not asking for the advantages/disadvantages(which I already know), "I asked you guys if it was illegal". The one employee then said "you better have a badge and handcuffs if your going to open carry". I was absolutely shocked. Here I am in a gun store, a very prominent gunstore in my area, probably the largest, and I was being told to conceal my weapon because "it's the law".

    After a little discussion with the 2 uniformed people, a customer walked by and said "He's right, open carry is legal in PA" and walked off, I suspect he is a member of PAFOA but I did not get a chance to talk to him/thank him. So then both of the guys said to me if you walk around with a open gun, you will be charged with "disturbing the peace" and have to pay a fine, I then said "There is no "disturbing the peace" statue in PA(I remembered that Steve(police officer here, sorry I can't think of his full screen name) said on here that there is no disturbing the peace statue here in PA. So anyway before I walked away, I decided I would not be able to educate these guys as much as some of you can. So before I walked away, I said to both of them "This is a gun store, you guys are supposed to be all about gun rights". Again they both something like "it's the way it is, you have to carry concealed". I then walked out in disbelief, I figured if there was anywhere I would be safe at open carrying, it would be at a gun range/store, especially one that on their website has a PAFOA link. If you ask me, this whole forum now has a duty to inform Target World on open carry, especially since they have a link to this site on their website, and they are openly telling people OC is illegal and not to do it in their store. I beleive they only told me not too since they thought it was illegal. I would be happy if Target World got some calls asking to speak with a manager/owner about open carry and inform them that their employee's are telling people who open carry there to conceal it because that's the law.

    In closing I am shocked that an attorney(who has a LTCF) who teaches certified instructors did not know the law. And if he did know the law he was hiding it, because he knows police officers do not want people open carrying. I am also shocked that at a large gun store(like I said it's the largest gun store in my area) who supports PAFOA.org on their website and has a direct link to here, told me to cover my weapon up because it's the law. Maybe it's the libertarian in me, but when I see our own gun store guys here in PA telling people OC is illegal unless your a cop, I get upset, we gun owners should all be together on major gun issues when it comes to the law. I won't bow down just because police officers don't want open carry, they are in law enforcement, not opinion enforcement, they need to understand that. I would also like flyers to be sent to Lansdale police department, Upper Gwynedd police dept., New Britain Police dept, and Montgomery Township police dept. I think it's only right. This area in my mind has become very anti gun, and there are alot of anti gunners in my area, but to get this crap at a large local gun store shocked me, I am still shocked. I would like your guy's help informing Target World, and all the police dept/'s I mentioned above.

    I was never a so called "Open carry guy" but I want all rights maintained, not diminished, and like I said, today I wanted to tuck my shirt in and not wear a jacket because of the weather, and I have every right to open carry a few times a year when I want to, but not according to my uniformed gun store. After being on the defensive about open carry, I understand why some of you are so gun ho about it, these people think they know the law but they are just talking out of their asses and will not listen to the truth, they do not care if they are right or wrong it seems, I am asking for your help informing my area police dept's and Target World. IMHO, Target World should not have a direct link to us on their website if they don't stand for the same gun rights this website has tried so hard to protect. Thanks for reading, I know this was a long story but I would like help informing the places above, especially Target World, they are a major gun store and do not care enough to know gun laws...and that attorney who teaches certified firearm instructors on the law absolutely blew my mind. Below is the link to Target Worlds website, where you can clearly see a PAFOA link.

    www.targetworldinc.com
    Last edited by jkroner659; March 15th, 2009 at 04:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Age
    48
    Posts
    10,890
    Rep Power
    21474858

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    Can you provide a name and/or description for the individuals you interacted with (privately if you prefer)?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    in a house, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
    Posts
    238
    Rep Power
    35

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    Can you provide a name and/or description for the individuals you interacted with (privately if you prefer)?
    I know them by their faces, but sorry I did not ask for their names, I was too shocked to think straight(I thought I was in friendly company). I could go back another time and get their names(the one guy is always there, who was talking to the attorney) but if 2/2 of the employee's I spoke with today thought they "knew" the law, I am sure they all are taught to think the same and are trained the same.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Bucks Cty, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Age
    65
    Posts
    5,689
    Rep Power
    21474853

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    Give them the PAFAO handout and don't say a word.

    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...carry-you.html

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    In a room., Pennsylvania
    Posts
    297
    Rep Power
    1445145

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    I'm surprised honestly, especially because I know I've seen some of the guys there walking around behind the counter with 1911s of some kind strapped to their belts (OC). I would be up for some distribution to local PDs, don't got Hatefield, Towamencin, and North Wales among others in the area.

    ~ Derek
    http://forum.pafoa.org/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=9206&dateline=1225911  268

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Age
    48
    Posts
    10,890
    Rep Power
    21474858

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    I just spoke to the target range manager. He said that he was unaware of the situation that occurred.

    I briefed him on the law, and asked for the owner's name so that I could provide further info to him via e-mail.

    The man I spoke to would not give his name, despite the fact that I promised not to post it publicly if he did. I mentioned how I became aware of the situation, and that bad press to this audience might not be good for business.

    I also reinforced that they may have whatever policy they wished for the premises, but having clerks dispense legal advice (and incorrect advice at that) was probably not something they should be doing.

    While I did mention seeing this story on this forum, I did not identify myself as representing PAFOA. I identified myself as representing Pennsylvania Open Carry, which I have permission to do.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Oil City, Pennsylvania
    (Venango County)
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,770
    Rep Power
    418433

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    I just spoke to the target range manager. He said that he was unaware of the situation that occurred.

    I briefed him on the law, and asked for the owner's name so that I could provide further info to him via e-mail.

    The man I spoke to would not give his name, despite the fact that I promised not to post it publicly if he did. I mentioned how I became aware of the situation, and that bad press to this audience might not be good for business.

    I also reinforced that they may have whatever policy they wished for the premises, but having clerks dispense legal advice (and incorrect advice at that) was probably not something they should be doing.

    While I did mention seeing this story on this forum, I did not identify myself as representing PAFOA. I identified myself as representing Pennsylvania Open Carry, which I have permission to do.

    You go over and above.....Thanks!!


    Glock Pistols.......So simple a Caveman could fix them!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    3,837
    Rep Power
    14630

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    I believe the law you where thinking of that PA doesn't have is brandishing. I think there is a disturbing the peace law on the books.

    IANAL though
    Last edited by XD45; March 15th, 2009 at 05:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mountain Top, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
    Age
    48
    Posts
    11,946
    Rep Power
    453011

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    Geez... I go outside for 5 minutes....

    I'll be back later, after chores and guests.

    Since Greg already called I would suggest possibly holding off on deluging them with letters/emails until we hear back (or don't hear back).
    _________________________________________

    danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
    you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
    Remember Meleanie

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Age
    48
    Posts
    10,890
    Rep Power
    21474858

    Default Re: Open Carry Incident at Target World

    Quote Originally Posted by XD45 View Post
    I believe the law you where thinking of that PA doesn't have is brandishing. U believe there is a disturbing the peace law on the books.

    IANAL though
    No brandishing. No "Disturbing the peace."
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
    There is no "disturbing the peace" law in PA.

    The only thing that could even remotely come close is;

    PACC 5503 Disorderly Conduct.

    (a) Offense defined.—A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
    (1) engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior;
    (2) makes unreasonable noise;
    (3) uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or
    (4) creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.

    Even then, (4) does not work because open carry is a legitimate (legal) purpose of the actor. Just because some little old lady is scared to see a person openly carrying a handgun, does not make that person subject to arrest.

    I would NOT ask any sheriff for any guidance or knowledge of the laws in PA. The vast majority have no clue as to what they are talking about, especially when it comes to gun laws.

    FYI, I am a PA LEO in Luzerne County

Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: October 25th, 2010, 11:32 AM
  2. Bucks county courthouse carry minor incident
    By jkroner659 in forum General
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: December 23rd, 2008, 10:07 AM
  3. Replies: 22
    Last Post: December 13th, 2008, 05:12 PM
  4. Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry ~ A paper by Garry E. Harvey
    By Pa. Patriot in forum Concealed Carry
    Replies: 84
    Last Post: November 29th, 2008, 05:41 PM
  5. FYI - Actual open carry incident report.
    By PeteG in forum Open Carry
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: September 11th, 2007, 02:47 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Local gun shops | Local shooting ranges | Philadelphia Shooting Ranges | Philadelphia Gun Shops | Pittsburgh Shooting Ranges | Pittsburgh Gun Shops