Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    I was re-reading some past threads where the discussion was over wether
    to choose a Revolver or a Semi-Automatic Pistol, then the disccussion over
    magazine capacities, etc. It reminded me of the reason that the transition by large or small departments from the mid 80's to now, went over to the
    various models of semi-auitomatics pistols. The first thought that crosses your mind is Firepower. I was reminded in going over a book published by
    Massad F. Ayoob, titled: The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-
    Defense. (1987, ISBN 0-0936279-07-9). "Firepower" was one reason the
    change occurred, but was 3rd or 4th on the list . It is still true today as
    it was over twenty years ago: "Improved Hit Potential Under Stress".
    In his book, Massad referenced a study according to the Police Foundation,
    a subsidiary of the Ford Foundation, that found nationwide studies of Police
    Gunfights, showed a first shot hit potential on the target/perp of only 25%.,
    aywhere on the body. So, in other words, for every four shots fired under
    stress, only one hit the target/Perp. The other 75% (3 shots), went out into
    the community at large with Police Double Action Revolvers. So to make this
    short, it was reasoned that Semi-Automatics Pistols would improve
    officers ability to hit there targets under stress better due to reduced
    trigger pulls, lower bores axis, less muzzel flip etc. I have always believed
    that with "proper training", this is reasonable criteria for selection of a Semi
    over a Revolver in Law Enforcement and Self Defense. With that said, I
    have been concerned that my first shot hit the target dramatically regard-
    less of magazine capiticities. The book was interesting for the information
    contained for that era. Would like your thoughts on the matter, leaving
    you with this thought by Chris Orndorf, a moderator/gunsmith on the
    Sig Forum, responding to a question that a department was making there officers go to double action semi-auto pistols only. His response was:
    "Lets take an admittedly difficult task, shooting accuratley under extreme
    duress and make it harder".
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Good theory. Reality, though, doesn't reflect the wishful thinking. Now police just send more rounds into the community. There hasn't been a marked improvement in police marksmanship, but when a cop is getting shot at, he or she tends to empty the magazine. So now you've got 10 or 15 rounds downrange instead of 6. Cool part is that said cops honest to goodness only remember firing however many rounds they were taught to fire during training.
    "Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWilliams View Post
    Good theory. Reality, though, doesn't reflect the wishful thinking. Now police just send more rounds into the community. There hasn't been a marked improvement in police marksmanship, but when a cop is getting shot at, he or she tends to empty the magazine. So now you've got 10 or 15 rounds downrange instead of 6. Cool part is that said cops honest to goodness only remember firing however many rounds they were taught to fire during training.
    Hey Joe is that revolver in your avatar what I think it is? lol
    Reputation is what I strive for.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Quote Originally Posted by S&W 10mm View Post
    Hey Joe is that revolver in your avatar what I think it is? lol
    I'm not sure, what do you think it is?

    Aside, of course, from my carry gun
    "Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Joe, I have to go along with your statement on "What they fire in Training".
    I have said this before: That the manner in which one trains, is the manner
    in which one will respond to in a deadly force situation. So if the training is
    minimal, as to Act 120 standards, the response will be minimal by the LEO.
    I believe that on several occassions that private persons taking advanced
    combat courses far exceed what PD's give there officers on a yearly basis.
    FUNDAMENTALS

    "All that is needed for Evil to Prevail is for Good Men to
    do Nothing"

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWilliams View Post
    I'm not sure, what do you think it is?

    Aside, of course, from my carry gun
    Ah, at first as I just saw the revolver part of your avatar I thought you found you another sp-101. Then the more I looked at it, I was pretty sure it was a Smith so I was partly right, lol

    Hows it shoot? It better than the Ruger, and of course what about weight?
    Reputation is what I strive for.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Quote Originally Posted by S&W 10mm View Post
    Ah, at first as I just saw the revolver part of your avatar I thought you found you another sp-101. Then the more I looked at it, I was pretty sure it was a Smith so I was partly right, lol

    Hows it shoot? It better than the Ruger, and of course what about weight?
    It's a S&W Model 66, a mid-sized, 4" barrelled .357 Magnum. Somewhat larger and heavier (36 oz) than the SP101. It's also more accurate, this particular one has a much better trigger, is easier to shoot well, but harder to conceal. All in all, it's a gun I'm going to like as well as my dear departed SP101, and every bit as useful in terms of versatility and all round usefulness.
    "Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Target shooting is great. But you need to try shooting under stress. And right now, the games are the best way to do this. IDPA, USPSA, IPSC. These games but you under some stress and make you think, move, and shoot all under a time restraint. It is a much more realistic idea of how you may react in a real shooting. And even this isn't a great indicator. Bit different when they are shooting back at you.
    The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control....
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtbkski View Post
    Target shooting is great. But you need to try shooting under stress. And right now, the games are the best way to do this. IDPA, USPSA, IPSC. These games but you under some stress and make you think, move, and shoot all under a time restraint. It is a much more realistic idea of how you may react in a real shooting. And even this isn't a great indicator. Bit different when they are shooting back at you.
    Games and practice are a great way to train. They build muscle memory you'll surely need when you suddenly get pants wetting scared. That way, while most of your brain is going "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT the little part of your brain and body that are left will respond to the very loud noises coming from the rest of your brain with the correct responses. If you haven't practiced, haven't trained, haven't drilled your body in what to do, you will have to THINK about what you've got to do, and I'm here to tell you, that is a very bad time to be trying to think about the fundamentals of shooting!

    In term of the OP, I think time has shown that the police department's thinking in terms of hit potential just didn't translate. As I think everybody in this thread agrees, the gun just doesn't matter as much as the training. Unless they get it on their own, just like the rest of us, most cops just aren't all that well trained.
    "Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress

    The trouble with police marksmanship is their attitude and approach to it.

    To them a gun is tool that comes with the job, and it's a chore to have to go qualify with it.

    "Shooters" are discouraged from the ranks, (save SWAT teams and the like) and as a result, you have a police force largely uninterested in marksmanship and proficiency.

    Where their training standards higher, their training time longer...individual attention given, the training more realistic and less dumbed down...you could easily get their hit % up.

    Today I taught a slightly timid deaf woman who never had never shot a gun before to punch the red out of a B-27 target at 7 yards. And I don't know sign language! Front sight focus and trigger control is NOT that hard of a concept to get across.

    But, you have to have students who WANT to learn the right way...and instructors that care about more than just passing their students. The guy I teach with was in LE 10 years before anyone told him he had to focus on the front sight...he qualified every time before though. Once he knew what to do, he started competing in IPSC....the SOB was getting .7 draw to a-zone hit at 5 yards, with a 6906 from his duty holster. He's one of the best shooters I've ever met.

    I've recently been getting a bunch of LEO's in on the range to practice for their upcoming quals....their fundamentals largely suck. The federal LEO's seem to be much more solid in terms of the fundamentals, but their rigid application of less than optimal techniques is hurting them, IMO.

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