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March 15th, 2009, 03:19 PM #1
Improved Hit potential Under Stress
I was re-reading some past threads where the discussion was over wether
to choose a Revolver or a Semi-Automatic Pistol, then the disccussion over
magazine capacities, etc. It reminded me of the reason that the transition by large or small departments from the mid 80's to now, went over to the
various models of semi-auitomatics pistols. The first thought that crosses your mind is Firepower. I was reminded in going over a book published by
Massad F. Ayoob, titled: The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-
Defense. (1987, ISBN 0-0936279-07-9). "Firepower" was one reason the
change occurred, but was 3rd or 4th on the list . It is still true today as
it was over twenty years ago: "Improved Hit Potential Under Stress".
In his book, Massad referenced a study according to the Police Foundation,
a subsidiary of the Ford Foundation, that found nationwide studies of Police
Gunfights, showed a first shot hit potential on the target/perp of only 25%.,
aywhere on the body. So, in other words, for every four shots fired under
stress, only one hit the target/Perp. The other 75% (3 shots), went out into
the community at large with Police Double Action Revolvers. So to make this
short, it was reasoned that Semi-Automatics Pistols would improve
officers ability to hit there targets under stress better due to reduced
trigger pulls, lower bores axis, less muzzel flip etc. I have always believed
that with "proper training", this is reasonable criteria for selection of a Semi
over a Revolver in Law Enforcement and Self Defense. With that said, I
have been concerned that my first shot hit the target dramatically regard-
less of magazine capiticities. The book was interesting for the information
contained for that era. Would like your thoughts on the matter, leaving
you with this thought by Chris Orndorf, a moderator/gunsmith on the
Sig Forum, responding to a question that a department was making there officers go to double action semi-auto pistols only. His response was:
"Lets take an admittedly difficult task, shooting accuratley under extreme
duress and make it harder".FUNDAMENTALS
"All that is needed for Evil to Prevail is for Good Men to
do Nothing"
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March 15th, 2009, 03:26 PM #2
Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress
Good theory. Reality, though, doesn't reflect the wishful thinking. Now police just send more rounds into the community. There hasn't been a marked improvement in police marksmanship, but when a cop is getting shot at, he or she tends to empty the magazine. So now you've got 10 or 15 rounds downrange instead of 6. Cool part is that said cops honest to goodness only remember firing however many rounds they were taught to fire during training.
"Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart
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March 15th, 2009, 06:45 PM #3
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March 15th, 2009, 07:27 PM #4
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March 15th, 2009, 08:05 PM #5
Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress
Joe, I have to go along with your statement on "What they fire in Training".
I have said this before: That the manner in which one trains, is the manner
in which one will respond to in a deadly force situation. So if the training is
minimal, as to Act 120 standards, the response will be minimal by the LEO.
I believe that on several occassions that private persons taking advanced
combat courses far exceed what PD's give there officers on a yearly basis.FUNDAMENTALS
"All that is needed for Evil to Prevail is for Good Men to
do Nothing"
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March 15th, 2009, 08:39 PM #6
Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress
Reputation is what I strive for.
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March 15th, 2009, 09:51 PM #7
Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress
It's a S&W Model 66, a mid-sized, 4" barrelled .357 Magnum. Somewhat larger and heavier (36 oz) than the SP101. It's also more accurate, this particular one has a much better trigger, is easier to shoot well, but harder to conceal. All in all, it's a gun I'm going to like as well as my dear departed SP101, and every bit as useful in terms of versatility and all round usefulness.
"Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart
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March 15th, 2009, 10:04 PM #8
Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress
Target shooting is great. But you need to try shooting under stress. And right now, the games are the best way to do this. IDPA, USPSA, IPSC. These games but you under some stress and make you think, move, and shoot all under a time restraint. It is a much more realistic idea of how you may react in a real shooting. And even this isn't a great indicator. Bit different when they are shooting back at you.
The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control....
The day they want my guns, they'll have to bring theirs!!!Proud to be One of the 3%
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March 15th, 2009, 10:12 PM #9
Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress
Games and practice are a great way to train. They build muscle memory you'll surely need when you suddenly get pants wetting scared. That way, while most of your brain is going "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT the little part of your brain and body that are left will respond to the very loud noises coming from the rest of your brain with the correct responses. If you haven't practiced, haven't trained, haven't drilled your body in what to do, you will have to THINK about what you've got to do, and I'm here to tell you, that is a very bad time to be trying to think about the fundamentals of shooting!
In term of the OP, I think time has shown that the police department's thinking in terms of hit potential just didn't translate. As I think everybody in this thread agrees, the gun just doesn't matter as much as the training. Unless they get it on their own, just like the rest of us, most cops just aren't all that well trained."Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart
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March 15th, 2009, 11:29 PM #10
Re: Improved Hit potential Under Stress
The trouble with police marksmanship is their attitude and approach to it.
To them a gun is tool that comes with the job, and it's a chore to have to go qualify with it.
"Shooters" are discouraged from the ranks, (save SWAT teams and the like) and as a result, you have a police force largely uninterested in marksmanship and proficiency.
Where their training standards higher, their training time longer...individual attention given, the training more realistic and less dumbed down...you could easily get their hit % up.
Today I taught a slightly timid deaf woman who never had never shot a gun before to punch the red out of a B-27 target at 7 yards. And I don't know sign language! Front sight focus and trigger control is NOT that hard of a concept to get across.
But, you have to have students who WANT to learn the right way...and instructors that care about more than just passing their students. The guy I teach with was in LE 10 years before anyone told him he had to focus on the front sight...he qualified every time before though. Once he knew what to do, he started competing in IPSC....the SOB was getting .7 draw to a-zone hit at 5 yards, with a 6906 from his duty holster. He's one of the best shooters I've ever met.
I've recently been getting a bunch of LEO's in on the range to practice for their upcoming quals....their fundamentals largely suck. The federal LEO's seem to be much more solid in terms of the fundamentals, but their rigid application of less than optimal techniques is hurting them, IMO.
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