carrying near schools

[jonnyec]

Hi all,
I have a question I was hoping to get some insight on. I will be moving to a block of Philadelphia that includes a school building. While I know you're not allowed to carry on school district property, I think there is also a number of feet near a school on which you're also not allowed to carry. I believe that's the law here, and I know it was like that when I lived in New Hampshire, and I'm sure in other states as well. My question is, is there some sort of exception if you're home falls within that designated number of feet as regards to carrying? I think there is, (I would imagine there would have to be, since if you're in close proximity to a school, you're obviously allowed to have a firearm in your home), but I wanted to get some clarification. Thanks!

[dman]

Don't know the laws of your area,but I do know this,you got to lead them,quick little bastards they are ! Just kidding !!!!!!!

[jahwarrior72]

as far as carrying in a school, that jury's still out (at least for me), but as long as you hold a valid LTCF, you can stand right in front of the doors to the school to pick up your kids, and you'd be legal.

[tl_3237]

Don't know of any Pa state restrictions while off school premises. There is a 1000 foot Federal prohibition by 18 USC 922(q)(2) -

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

but you'll note that there is a exemption while on private property or while carrying pursuant to LTCF.

[jonnyec]

I was pretty sure that's how the law works as well. I only asked because when I lived out of state, (In New Hampshire, mind you, which is very gun-friendly/pro liberty), there was such a law that stated something about not being allowed to carry within so many feet of a school. But there was an exception, which I looked into, for people who may live within that boundary. I learned this since the apartment complex I was living in was across the street from a school, and technically within that footage. I'm sure it's probably similar, (if not the amount of footage, at least the spirit of the law), here in PA. Thanks!

[imperialism2024]

I was pretty sure that's how the law works as well. I only asked because when I lived out of state, (In New Hampshire, mind you, which is very gun-friendly/pro liberty), there was such a law that stated something about not being allowed to carry within so many feet of a school. But there was an exception, which I looked into, for people who may live within that boundary. I learned this since the apartment complex I was living in was across the street from a school, and technically within that footage. I'm sure it's probably similar, (if not the amount of footage, at least the spirit of the law), here in PA. Thanks!

In plain English...

If you don't have a LTCF, in theory you could be prosecuted under Federal law if caught carrying within 1000 feet of school property, even if you're otherwise carrying legally according to the laws of the state. An example would be if you were openly carrying here in Allentown within 1000 feet of a school.

However, a LTCF exempts you from that Federal prohibition. Well, specifically, a LTCF issued by the state in which the school is.

Point being that you're going to need a LTCF to carry a gun in Philadelphia, and that LTCF that you presumably have means that you can legally carry right up to the edge of school property.

As has already been stated, the jury is still out on whether or not carrying on school property and in a school is legal. The Pennsylvania law states that those carrying for "lawful purposes" are exempt from the ban on carrying in schools, and presumably "self defense" is recognized as a legitimate purpose for carrying a gun seeing that it's listed as a reason for getting a LTCF. So it should be legal, but no one wants to be the test case before Pennsylvania's Supreme Court.

[gnbrotz]

IANAL. The below is my opinion based on my understanding of current law.

While I know you're not allowed to carry on school district property

False.

Obviously the "lawful purpose" debate will continue until we have case law on the matter, but I think it's important to point out some misconceptions and misunderstandings I see repeatedly.

First, it is not illegal (at either the state or federal level) to carry a firearm on "school district property". Even if you believe that the "lawful purpose" only applies to police officers, the prohibition does NOT include all "school district property".

§912. Possession of Weapon on School Property.

(a) Definition.—Notwithstanding the definition of “weapon” in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), “weapon” for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.—A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose. (Added by L.1980, Act 167(1), eff. 12/15/80.)

I would love to hear how anyone can think that an administration building, transportation facility or unattached athletic complex could possibly fit the areas mentioned in statute.

as far as carrying in a school, that jury's still out (at least for me), but as long as you hold a valid LTCF, you can stand right in front of the doors to the school to pick up your kids, and you'd be legal.

OK. Here's another statement I totally don't get (even though I love ya Alex!). Again, based on the statutory language, I don't see how the same person can feel it's legal to stand outside the door, but (possibly) illegal to be inside the door. IF you accept the 'lawful purpose' argument, it is legal in both places, and if you don't, then both are prohibited. Outside the door is clearly still on "school grounds".

[jahwarrior72]

OK. Here's another statement I totally don't get (even though I love ya Alex!). Again, based on the statutory language, I don't see how the same person can feel it's legal to stand outside the door, but (possibly) illegal to be inside the door. IF you accept the 'lawful purpose' argument, it is legal in both places, and if you don't, then both are prohibited. Outside the door is clearly still on "school grounds".

what i mean is, most schools have their own clear rules about carrying weapons inside the building. i've picked up and dropped off my kids at school while OCing, but never set foot in the building. i just don't want to be the test case for carrying inside a school.

[gnbrotz]

what i mean is, most schools have their own clear rules about carrying weapons inside the building. i've picked up and dropped off my kids at school while OCing, but never set foot in the building. i just don't want to be the test case for carrying inside a school.

Even so, a "school rule" wouldn't make it "illegal", only statute can do that.

Also, if we ever do get clear case law on this question, the fact that school districts are a political/municipal entity should mean that preemption applies to them, and any such limit they attempted to impose would have no teeth.

[Rauswaffen]

Even so, a "school rule" wouldn't make it "illegal", only statute can do that.

Also, if we ever do get clear case law on this question, the fact that school districts are a political/municipal entity should mean that preemption applies to them, and any such limit they attempted to impose would have no teeth.

Who here is willing to test that out during bring your parent to school day?