9mm suitable for home defense?

[TJB63]

Random,

As soon as the weather in the east warms up some, I think I might try that Drywall theory, I saw someone else mention the same thing on another board, but I believe it was in a book called AR15 by some guy named Sweeny or something like that. I assume that a 5.56mm will penetrate 1 sheet of drywall pretty much intact, but I also assume that in a house of standard construction, it would probably splatter against the outer house covering, plywood, brick whatever. but then again, you know what they say about those of us that assume.

I have a video done in the 90's where the guy tested the 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm & a .308 against all kinds of cover including a car. I believe SWAT magazine did a similar test back in the 80's -- the bottom line was that the 5.56mm would not penetrate a car door or windshield -- a person sitting inside a car getting shot at with a 5.56mm was relatively safe with the end result being superficial wounds from the FMJ separation/glass fragments. Keep in mind they were using 55gr FMJs. Similar results were found against light vegetation and brick, plywood walls. In the video the 7.62x39mm naturally penetrated better, but had the tendency to keyhole and of course the .308 penetrated everything except the engine block. It was an interesting video and I'm not even sure if it is still available, If I was better at Tech stuff I'd try to post it somewhere, but it is about an hour or more long.

TJ

[Zeede]

Well, a nearby gun club I've been thinking of checking out is really big on trap and skeet. After I hone my skills on the .22 I might go into trap and skeet, which would mean I'd have to buy a shotgun.

Now I don't know anything about shotguns, but I'm sure that if it shoots clay pigeons well it should be sufficient for home defense. Might have to use a different kind of shot, but it should suffice.

Cameron

[andrewmyers]

yeah all this talk about bird shot not being a killer is really, well not really upsetting, but still i feel i should make this point....you can use more than 8 shot or dove loads, ive seen what 4 shot does to plenty of animals ive killed with it, squirrel, rabbits, pheasants, etc...you can use light loads, you can use heavy loads, the shot gun is versatile, more so than any rifle or pistol.....all i know is that if you hit someone in the neck-face region they will bleed to death at the very least and very quickly at that..and you can always blind someone with a shot to the face. thats enough to do whatever else you see fit to stop them. plus the point isnt always on killing, its stopping. a bean bag round will put someone on the ground very quickly. broken ribs, crushed skull, or even just the massive shock can stun someone. you might disagree, but the point isnt always on killing...but its nice to know you can kill with your gun, i will agree there.

[SteveXD]

Home defense = shotgun.

+1 on that! no need to aim just pull the trigger

[rich]

I believe Beretta also makes the storm in 45 acp which should hold less of a chance of over penetration than a 9mm or 9mm +p defensive round. In a carbine configuration recoil should be very manageable.

[gf45acp]

If the Storm in 9mm is what works for you, go for it. Do some research and pick a load that is 100% reliable in it. Try every mag you buy. With a long gun put a tac light on it, you will not have a hand for a flashlight while using it.

[NineseveN]

+1 on that! no need to aim just pull the trigger

Only if you don't mind missing.


The nine is fine for home defense, the question is, are you fine for home defense? Practice, train, know your home and your abilities.

[rich]

Someone is selling a CX4 Storm in 45acp in the firearms section here
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/firearms-...ed-pgh-pa.html

[MarcS]

yeah all this talk about bird shot not being a killer is really, well not really upsetting, but still i feel i should make this point....you can use more than 8 shot or dove loads, ive seen what 4 shot does to plenty of animals ive killed with it, squirrel, rabbits, pheasants, etc...you can use light loads, you can use heavy loads, the shot gun is versatile, more so than any rifle or pistol.....all i know is that if you hit someone in the neck-face region they will bleed to death at the very least and very quickly at that..and you can always blind someone with a shot to the face. thats enough to do whatever else you see fit to stop them. plus the point isnt always on killing, its stopping. a bean bag round will put someone on the ground very quickly. broken ribs, crushed skull, or even just the massive shock can stun someone. you might disagree, but the point isnt always on killing...but its nice to know you can kill with your gun, i will agree there.

The smallest size buckshot that can reliably meet minimum penetration guidelines set forth by the FBI and IWBA is #1 buckshot. Anything smaller and you're taking chances. humans are larger animals than rabbits, squirrels and pheasants. End of story.

+1 on that! no need to aim just pull the trigger

In reality, at average household shooting distances the pattern from your shotgun will be less than 5" It's very easy to miss if you do not aim

I believe Beretta also makes the storm in 45 acp which should hold less of a chance of over penetration than a 9mm or 9mm +p defensive round. In a carbine configuration recoil should be very manageable.

Using the same loads, there will be little difference if any in penetration or lethality.



In closing, if you are going to use a rifle for home defense, have it be a rifle caliber. Handguns are handguns and rifles are rifles. There is no major increase in lethality until we get into intermediate rifle cartridges. Here's some quick pro's and cons of common household defensive firearm choices:

Handgun:
-Pro: Maneuverability (may be important if you have a reason to leave your room and have one hand tied up securing your kids)
-Con: lower lethality and hit percentage than other choices, potentially limited capacity.

-Shotgun:
-Pro: Lethality, higher hit percentage (not from the spread, but from being a long gun)
-Con: Maneuverability, limited capacity, slow to reload, commonly selected pump-guns have a more complex manual of arms (operation under stress).

Pistol-Caliber Carbine:
-Pro: higher hit percentage (from being a long gun); capacity (some of them)
-Con: maneuverability, lethality is really not significantly better than pistol

Intermediate Rifle Caliber Carbine
-Pro: higher hit percentage, capacity, lethality
-Con: maneuverability

[Heretical1]

The last edit to this post revised the paragraph formerly titled, "Thirdly, your ammunition should be subsonic." It also corrected the term hypersonic to supersonic. Hypersonic means: "Relating to or capable of speeds equal to or exceeding five times the speed of sound (Mach 5 and above)." Lastly, a "must read" link was provided for "low light" considerations.

I live alone in a multi-dwelling housing unit where kids also reside, so my priorities may differ. I am not a self-defense/personal safety expert, and I both deny and disclaim providing any actionable information or advice in this post. This post should not be considered sufficiently accurate or complete for the purpose of being relied upon by anyone contemplating providing for their own defense/personal safety or that of another. Moreover, it is no substitute for such information or advice that is available from a certified self-defense and personal safety expert.

The first home defense weapon (HDW) priority is accessibility. Typically, by the time you have obtained and readied the HDW for fire, you need to shoot NOW. Therefore, it has to be easily retrievable from a secured location. (I would never leave my HDW unsecured when I am not home.)

Were I planning a home-invasion robbery, under a worst-case scenario, i.e., under conditions of complete civil breakdown, I would strike while everyone is gathered around the dinner table eating supper. Chances are, you won't be armed, the doors will be unlocked, the intrusion alarm system will be off, the dog will be out in the yard... you get the picture. How are you going to defend yourself and your family?

This is precisely the situation wherein using chemical mace in a confined, inadequately ventilated space is unwise. You're more likely to disable yourself and your family. Asthmatics will likely be in critical jeopardy.

A Stampede that left bodies piled at least four in height in the main doorway was caused by discharging mace in a Chicago nightclub.

"You could see a mound of people," said Cory Thomas, 33, who went to the club to pick up two friends. "People were stacking on top of each other, screaming and gagging, I guess from the pepper spray. The door got blocked because there were too many people stacked up against it."

Forget about all those other "less-than-lethal" do-dads, too. That stuff is for cops who are trying to control unruly behavior. This post isn't about all the subtle nuances and contingencies you may encounter during a home invasion, but if someone you don't know enters your home uninvited, you still have the right to produce a firearm to change their mind about visiting you unannounced (without pointing it directly at an unarmed intruder, unless they present a clearly imminent threat of great bodily harm or death).

And for those of you who are curious, my revolver hangs on the bathroom door from a ballistic nylon shoulder rig (which will be reasonably stable while I'm both wet and naked). It's complete with speed loaders, back-up ammo, a tactical knife and 3 regular-sized O.B. tampons (which are not packaged in applicators). I'm a dude. Can you guess what those tampons are for? Why only 3 tampons? Because any less is being cocky, and any more is being pessimistic. Besides, if I'm still functional after being shot more than 3 times, and the intruder is still a viable threat, I'm putting my last "lucky" bullet through the back of my mouth.

Secondly, a HDW must allow for one-handed operation, so that you can aim and shoot while opening doors or windows, or turning lights on and off (if necessary). We'll discuss more about ambient v. tactical lighting, later.

Although it goes without saying, you'd be surprised at how many people get this wrong. If it doesn't compromise your safety, always call 911 before investigating that bump in the night. You'll be no good to anyone if you're later incapacitated after failing to have first called 911. Moreover, you may bleed to death while waiting for help to arrive. And all the while, you'll anguish over whether or not someone else called after hearing gun shots. Alternatively, you may need to call 911 post-incident because some people have been ambushed and shot due to their 911 call having revealed their location, as well as having eliminated the element of surprise. The same goes with making noise while inserting an ammo magazine, and while racking either the slide or the charging handle.

That's why if my HDW cannot be safely stored ready-to-shoot, I don't need it. It's also why my preference is a .45 Long Colt/.454 Casull revolver loaded with .45 LC Winchester Silver Tips, and Hornady JHP Casulls (there is no frangible ammo in these calibers that I'm aware of). Although the hammer is always strapped down with a thumb-break, the gun is always loaded. It never jams. There is no safety to forget about. For self-defense, I fire it double-action (DA) only.

Thirdly, your ammunition should be both subsonic and frangible (more on frangible ammo below). Most confrontations will probably take place while you're taking cover in an interior hallway or a similarly confined space (the idea being, of course, to keep the intruder out in the open, if possible). Most supersonic rounds, particularly when shot through a muzzle brake that directs expelled gas up and back toward the shooter, will probably cause some irreversible hearing damage; e.g., tinnitus, at the very least. If not, your hearing will be compromised at least temporarily, which means you can't hear where that intruder you missed ran off to.

Even a discharge from a shotgun that's powerful enough to take a large man down from across a room will be only slightly less loud than supersonic pistol and rifle rounds. Got a silencer/suppressor? Good for you, but remember, there are always 3 sounds to consider: 1) The weapon's discharge, 2) a supersonic bullet breaking the sound barrier, and 3) the sound of the intruder either collapsing on the floor, or running away. If you hear a fourth sound, you screwed up. It will either be a scream, or possibly, a hammer dropping. Whatever it is, it won't signify the most optimal outcome, and you may not get a do-over.

The other disadvantage to supersonic ammo is the blinding muzzle flash on weapons that don't feature flash concealment. The closer the flash occurs to you, the more your field of night vision is disrupted. Don't think that you can just close your eyes when the trigger trips. You'll inevitably jerk the trigger, and on a short-barreled weapon at greater than point-blank range, you'll likely miss the target. And an armed intruder may immediately return fire now that he knows exactly where you are.

(Yes, I know that .454 Casull is supersonic. But if I don't nail the intruder with the first four .45 LC's, he's probably either got a ballistics vest on, or he's behind good cover that I need to shoot through. In the event of the former, I just hope that the blunt-force trauma from the Casull load will disable/incapacitate him long enough to disarm and secure him. For the same reasons, in high-power supersonic calibers, as a last resort, homeowners should load ammo that will also penetrate hard cover objects, e.g., heavy furniture. This consideration also militates favorably toward revolvers as a HDW weapon of choice. I can easily distinguish the .45 LC's from the .454 Casulls because the primer of one is like shiny chrome, and the other is like dull brass. Therefore, if I absolutely need to get to the last two .454 loads without reloading, I can quickly "dial them in" by opening the cylinder and repositioning it to advance to the .454 on the next DA trigger pull.)

Fourthly, the HDW should have a BATFE-legal barrel length, or shorter (i.e., a bona fide handgun). Alternatively, you may try to get the BATFE to issue you the tax stamp and paperwork for a legally-qualified, short-barreled rifle or shotgun, provided that you're willing to pay $$ for it. The point being, you need to be able to open a door with the HDW in its proper firing position, and pointed at an intruder who may be directly on the other side. If possible, don't let the intruder come to you. Use the cover and concealment features of your home to your advantage. If your arms aren't long enough to open that door with your legal-barrel-length rifle or shotgun, you made the wrong choice for a HDW.

Fifthly, your HDW's sights must allow for almost instantaneous sight picture and sight alignment in low light. Using a tactical flashlight is just going to reveal your position and ruin the element of surprise. Unfortunately, if ambient lighting is insufficient (leave window coverings open at night, with proper exterior lighting pointed away from your home), using a tactical flashlight may be necessary in order to properly identify your target. Therefore, once you turn on a tactical light, it should be held out in front of you, and as high and away from you as practicable so as not to become a target beacon. Use the light to distract an intruder and disrupt his night vision, while shrouding yourself in darkness as much as possible.

The bottom line is that for greater than point-blank range, you need night sights at least, and preferably, a tritium-reticle-based, fiber-optic-enhanced, reflex sight. Don't believe all this S.W.A.T. crap you see on TV. Entry teams mount tactical lights on their weapons because they can't all have their arms extended and blocking their buddys' view. You're probably going to be alone, unless your partner/roommate is as well trained and drilled (along with you), and is as mentally disciplined for neutralizing home invasion threats as you are (and you are, aren't you?). Survival is rarely ever fortuitous. Plan, prepare yourself mentally and physically, equip, train, tweak and drill-baby-drill!

Sixthly, in a field trial of several common pistol, rifle and shotgun rounds put through the "Box O' Truth" from 12 feet, the test revealed that all of them, except .22 LR, but including 5.56 ball ammo, penetrated 12 sheets of 5/8" drywall. A small sample of the field trials is shown below.



Even a frangible 5.56 round penetrated 4 sheets of 5/8" drywall (simulating 2 interior walls) before exploding inside a plastic gallon-sized water jug.




There is a frangible bullet that, if represented accurately, is designed to shatter into powder on contact with drywall, yet penetrate human soft tissue with lethal depth and kinetic energy transfer. The following excerpts from http://www.extremeshockusa.com/ are quoted out of context:

NyTrilium-Tungsten Air Freedom Rounds

"... Under most circumstances, the AFR (Air Freedom Round) will not penetrate the skin of conventional aircraft... . It is also designed to not penetrate the aluminum backs of most airline seats, reducing potential collateral damage in the event of a shootout at 30,000 feet. Unlike rounds made of polymers that can generate lethal ricochet, the Extreme Shock AFR round will turn to harmless powder if it misses its intended target and hits a hard surface. It is the only round in the world with this level of performance and safety. This is also possibly the world's safest home defense round, as in most circumstances, it will fragment in standard 1 half-inch sheet rock wallboard. This bullet runs at plus-P type pressures, and should be used only in firearms of good construction and good working order." [Emphasis added.]

"It fragments in logamarithmic proportion to the hardness of the target it strikes. It more than doubles the rate of energy transfer of a typical hollow point round! It more than quadruples the rate of energy transfer of conventional ball rounds. If it is striking something brittle, it's Nytrilium-Tungsten core will disintegrate very rapidly, reducing shoot-through and ricochet. When it hits softer organic targets, it fragments at a slower rate, with larger fragments dissipating into the target creating literally hundreds of wound channels."

"E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system."

"100% percent of the energy is transferred into the surrounding tissue mass. This is the reason that the effective E-Shock wound channel is up to (depending on caliber) an astonishing 200 times the size of the entry wound!! Like a shaped charge that is used against tanks and armored targets, the NyTrilium fragments pick up the surrounding tissue mass and rams it forward, dramatically increasing the effective frontal area of the projectile."

"The pistol rounds comply with appropriate DOJ pistol caliber ballistic vest requirements, but are devastatingly effective against armed assailants."

[I have not found any subsonic or frangible ammo configured in .45 LC or .454 Casull cartridges, so I have no experience with them.]