Help! I bought reloaded 357's from Horst Auction in Ephrata, PA.

[bamboomaster]

I've bought other stuff from them too and want to say straight away that I enjoyed my time there and felt as though whatever I purchased was at some epicenter of fair market value (FMV), no matter how you slice and dice it.

Which is why I was somewhat flummoxed after I purchased two 500 round lots this past January 2009 auction apparently from an estate of "Caution, reloads!" ammo and Horst's lack of a satisfactory response.

While I bid on many other auction items there and taking the stuff home really pushed my 1993 Toyota Camry to the limit of its performance specs, especially where weight considerations were concerned, I just felt I was missing something (aside from my own stupidity).

Let me tell you why.

There were apparently over 3,000 rounds of this .357 ammo for sale, all in 50 round red plastic containers more or less from "MTM Molded Products Co. in Dayton, OH". So when you see someone who apparently owns the market on red plastic containers (but there were some other colors, too), and an even greater number of .357 rounds (you don't reload 3,000 rounds of out-of-spec 357's unless you're a numbskull), you think the fella (God rest his soul), knew what he was doing - or else had a really cold winter.

The lots I purchased were 668 and 670 (aka "lead ammo" for $75 and $85 per 500. So around 15 cents and 17 cents per round. Seemed like a good deal at the time.

Well just to make what seemed like a great deal even worse, imagine my dismay to discover that the rounds didn't fit in my Colt Trooper MK III. They dropped in, except for the last 3/8 inch of the round.

So I got out my .357 case gauge (which I never thought to bring to a gun auction) and you know what? The rounds didn't drop through there either.

So I pulled out my reloading books and my digital caliper and found that the rounds (at least by length) were out of spec - they measured approximately 1.623 inches in length instead of 1.590 which is pretty dang close to what you need if you're loading a revolver and hope to cycle the cylinder after each shot. I could be wrong, but I don't think the cylinder had a chance - even if you pushed these rounds in with the back end of a pencil because the nose of what looked to me like 158 grn LNSWC would be sticking through the forward end of the cylinder.

After closer inspection, here's what I figured out:

1. If you're going to an auction where you think you may have a 1 in 10,000 chance of buying any reloads, bring ALL of your case gauges, reloading manuals, and some version of a digital caliper. You're gonna need them. It's just a short walk out to the car, if you do.

2. The fella here evidently didn't fully-resize the case, for the last quarter of an inch just doesn't go into anything I'm shooting. I did phone Horst Auctions and spoke with a very kind gentleman about my issue. The reply went something like this:

a. We said "Caution, they're reloads" and we don't know anything about them.
b. He asked what I was trying to shoot them in and I said a Colt Trooper MK III, which I had received as a gift from my karate students in 1978 before I moved to Hawaii.
c. He suggested that these rounds could have been possibly reloaded for a lever-action rifle that shoots .357 rounds and did I have one to try the rounds out?
d. I replied that I didn't have such a rifle and if the rounds didn't fit into my case gauge, even if a lever-action rifle had the "umph" to insert the round into battery, did I really wan to shoot it?

So that's sorta where we are here. I have a thousand rounds of .357 mostly in Midway brass that I thought was reloaded to spec and that I'd just ask for your euridite remarks so you could find a special way to let me know how stupid I was to bid at "reloads" at an auction. I figure if there were enough snow days and the economy really fell into the sh!tter, I could really pull the rounds from the brass, save the powder, and then do this right on my Dillon 550.

For the record, while I have only attended "ONE" PAFOA event approximately one week ago (the carry thing), I know in my heart that many of you have more experience than I do where fixing the reloading problems (and follow-on stupid buying mistakes) of other individuals may be concerned.

Please don't tell me I have to pull all of these rounds and re-size the cases. Which I could do since Punxatawny Phil alledgedly knawed off the finger of Michael Bloomberg so we've got six weeks of possibly awful weather coming, not to mention an economic depression.

Did I say that?

Thanks guys for taking the time to read about one more cunundrum from someone who would benefit from your possibly thoughtful remarks.

[Bama Man]

How heavy is the crimp?
Can you set them in your bullet seating die and press the bullet into the case the extra .133 in to get your 1.590?
I know it sounds sucky, but, that may be the easiest fix.
Pull the bullet on one or two, at random ,and check the powder weight, bullet weight, etc. And then, start pressing if all else looks ok.

[normanvin]

You should pull a few to check the powder charge also.

I have always been told not to buy someone else reloads. You never know his reloading practices are up to par.

[Pa. Patriot]

I'm not saying this to be a dick, I just really can't think of a better way to put it... "Caution, reloads" seems pretty self explanatory. Purchasing them from an unknown source (auction) ups the importance of the "caution" part

My approach to reloads is

My approach to reloads is as follows:

1) Never shoot reloads of unknown origin. IMO, the chance of injury/damage it's simply not worth it. At any price including free.

2) Be very, VERY sure of yourself in trusting a known sourse. If you don't reload, I would recommend against shooting anyone's reloads because without being a reloader you may not know what to look for in regards to experienced and safe practices.

3) I would personally ONLY ever value/bid on reloads from an unknown or untrusted source at the worth of the components. And I'm talking primed brass and bullets. I would not trust the powder to be what is says it is and would discard it.

If I were you I would simply salvage the components.

[notenoughguns]

you might have gotten ammo loaded for 357 maximum buy the measurements you posted , just a guess .

[Warners Surplus]

sounds to me like you just bought 3.000rnds of primed brass! Get yourself a collet bullet puller and pull them all. Dump the powder in the garden for fertalizer and sell the collet pulled heads to someone who smelts lead and casts thier own heads and then reload the primed brass the right way.

Either way, remember 357 brass retails NEW for 20 bucks per 100 for unprimed. So you still made out OK on the brass.


JMHO,
Rich W.

[Brick]

Don't be upset. You can pull the bullets, dump the powder and reuse the brass (as primed brass if the primers are still good) check the bullets for weight, diameter and length and if they are within spec reuse them too. That way you cut your loses. Before you reload the brass check it for length and trim to the correct "trim to length" if needed.

[inkie]

I had the same problem a few years back but only bought 200 rounds [4boxes] from someone at a flea market. The OAL was more than the specs called for I seated the heads to the proper oal and had no problems when they went bang! As suggested previously, THE FIRST THING I DID: was to pull the heads on 3 bullets and weighed the powder. In my case it was close in grains to what most powders would be for the weight of the bullet. So I knew it was safe to shoot. In your case I would pull the heads of at least 20 or more from throughout the batch to be safe. I would also give it a slight taper crimp when seating. Good Luck!

[GunLawyer001]

Many auctions offer items that used to belong to someone who is now dead.

I'm not saying that the guy who used to own these was killed by gun shrapnel caused by massive overpressure from rounds that had to be compressed to fit in the gun. But maybe. All we know is, something killed him, and he had all these amateur loads left over.... let's just hope he was a heavy smoker, or his wife poisoned him. Think positively.


On a related note, even though you could fit overlong cartridges into the tubular magazine of a lever-action rifle, wouldn't they still have to fit in the chamber?

[bamboomaster]

Awesome suggestions from all of you. While I know I should be doing tax returns right now, the weight of your collective wisdom inspired me to take a look at what I had here, so I did pull the bullets on six of the cartridges. Here's what I found:

1. All brass was "Midway 357 Mag". The OAL average for the brass was 1.289 and none exceed 1.290. None of the pulled brass would fit completely in the case gauge - always seemed like the last .1645 inches were hung up - suggested to me a bad job resizing.

2. The bullets were 158 grn LSWC that averaged 157.7 grns in weight. There was no more than a .4 grn variation from high to low. There were no gas checks on any of the bullets. Unfortunately, I didn't have a way to test their Brinnel hardness...

3. The powder charge averaged 6.9 grains with the highest at 7.1 and the lowest at 6.8. It's definitely a flake powder which to me resembles Unique.

I've seen some load data on http://www.reloadammo.com/357loads.htm for 158 gr LSWC and there is a load there for Unique using 6.8 grains. Since the load velocity appears to have chronied out at 1295 fps, even if these fit the case gauge (and they didn't), I wouldn't shoot 'em as loaded because I've always thought there ought to be a gas check of some sorts if you're using lead and going over 1000 fps.

Thanks to all of your remarks, I'm looking at this from a "glass is half full" point of view:

1. In a greener world, I get to use the powder as fertilizer and/or soil ammendment,

2. In a few weeks I'll have 1,000 primed 357 mag brass that I'll resize on the Dillon after pulling the primer punch.

3. And I get to play with the 158 grn LSWC's in some load development capacity.

Kindest regards to all of you. You fellas really rock!

-Bamboomaster