Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    PRINTER'S NO. 404

    THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF PENNSYLVANIA
    HOUSE BILL No. 357
    Session of 2009

    INTRODUCED BY D. O'BRIEN, BRIGGS, CARROLL, COHEN, FRANKEL, HARHAI, HARPER, KIRKLAND, KORTZ, MILLER, MUNDY, MURT, SABATINA, SIPTROTH, K. SMITH, SWANGER AND WALKO,
    FEBRUARY 11, 2009
    REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY, FEBRUARY 11, 2009

    AN ACT

    1 Amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania
    2 Consolidated Statutes, further providing for licensing of
    3 dealers.
    4 The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    5 hereby enacts as follows:
    6 Section 1. Section 6113 of Title 18 of the Pennsylvania
    7 Consolidated Statutes is amended by adding a subsection to read:
    8 § 6113. Licensing of dealers.
    9
    * * *
    10 (a.1) Background checks required.--
    11 (1) Prior to issuing a license pursuant to this section,
    12 the person authorized to issue a license to the applicant
    13 shall ensure:
    14 (i) that the applicant undergoes an investigation
    15 conducted pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses)
    16 and that the applicant would not be prohibited from
    17 obtaining a license pursuant to that section; and
    1 (ii) that the applicant possesses a valid Federal
    2 firearms license and is in compliance with all Federal
    3 and State laws and regulations relating thereto,
    4 including any firearm sale or transfer recordkeeping
    5 requirements.
    6 (2) Notwithstanding any provision of law to the
    7 contrary, and except as provided in paragraph (3), no dealer
    8 shall permit any person to perform any act on his behalf
    9 which is required by any provision of this subchapter unless
    10 the dealer first conducts a criminal history, juvenile
    11 delinquency and mental health records background check on the
    12 person following the procedures set forth in section 6111
    13 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms), receives a unique
    14 approval number for that inquiry and maintains a record of
    15 the date and approval number to ensure the person is not
    16 subject to the prohibitions of section 6105 (relating to
    17 persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or
    18 transfer firearms). Background checks on such persons shall,
    19 at a minimum, be conducted every three years. The dealer
    20 shall maintain proof of compliance with this paragraph upon
    21 the premises designated in the license and, for each person
    22 acting on his behalf at a lawful gun show or meet, at the
    23 point of sale at the lawful gun show or meet.
    24 (3) The background checks required by paragraph (2)
    25 shall not be required if the person performing acts on behalf
    26 of the dealer holds a valid license to carry a firearm issued
    27 pursuant to section 6109 or if the person is a State
    28 constable, sheriff, prison or jail warden, or the person's
    29 deputy, a policeman of this Commonwealth or its political
    30 subdivisions, or other law enforcement officer.

    20090HB0357PN0404
    - 2 -
    1 * * *
    2 Section 2. This act shall take effect in 60 days.

    20090HB0357PN0404
    3

    I don't see this as "bad" it seems to be placing the same requirements on a dealer and his assistances as is required for owning or purchasing a firearm. But our resident dealers should opine in case I missed something.

    See: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/...r=0357&pn=0404


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

  2. #2
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    This is nothing more than worthless redundancy that will cost dealers (and therefor the customers) money.

    Dealers are already checked in the process of obtaining the federal license.
    It is already illegal for a prohibited person to work at a gun shop/handle firearms.

    Requiring dealers to pay for background checks of employees (that work under the dealers supervision anyway) is going to mean passing on the cost of this requirement to the customer.

    As with most laws, it's a bad one IMO.
    _________________________________________

    danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
    you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
    Remember Meleanie

  3. #3
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    Doesn't the Federal FFL process require the State License first? If so this sets up a situation where there can be no new dealers since each is a precondition for the other.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    Quote Originally Posted by -JD- View Post
    Doesn't the Federal FFL process require the State License first? If so this sets up a situation where there can be no new dealers since each is a precondition for the other.
    NO, the dealer gets the FFL and THEN gets his/her state license.


    However!! I will gladly agree to this MAJOR BS law if they change it to include a penalty on PSPFD if THEY screw up!!

    Long story short.

    Guy buys MULTIPLE firearms from a dealer and passes the PICS check everytime. He buys several firearms from other dealers and passes PICS everytime. He has his LTCF which ofcourse he was approved by none other than PICS to get. He gets his dream job of working in a gun shop after YEARS of PICS approvals. THEN all of a sudden a mysteriously missing warrent from 20 years ago (failure to appear on shop lifting charge) appears out of no were and all of a sudden PICS wants to literaly FRY the FFL holder for allowing a prohibited person to sell firearms. The guy was concidered a fugitive from justice therefore making him a prohibited person under 6105. NO LESS than 15 PICS checks had been done on this guy in the previous 3 years with APPROVAL everytime!!!

    This is just another BS law to be used in an attempt to shut down shops!!


    Rich W.
    Last edited by Warners Surplus; February 11th, 2009 at 06:31 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    Quote Originally Posted by Warners Surplus View Post

    This is just another BS law to be used in an attempt to shut down shops!!


    Rich W.
    Bingo! ....
    _________________________________________

    danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
    you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
    Remember Meleanie

  6. #6
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    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that employees charged with handling/selling firearms should themselves be eligible to own/posses them.

    All of that being said, I have no idea whether this would fix any sort of actual problem. Have there been any recorded incidents of gun shops employing individuals who were themselves legally disqualified from owning firearms, and used their employment to illegally gain access to guns for themselves or for trafficking purposes?

    Honest question, I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot View Post
    Requiring dealers to pay for background checks of employees (that work under the dealers supervision anyway) is going to mean passing on the cost of this requirement to the customer.
    I doubt we are looking at a significant financial burden here.

    Assuming we are talking about something as simple as PSP background check, I've ran one against myself and it cost me all of $15. I was considering taking a gun training class through the Fire Institute, and they require everyone taking the course to provide a copy of a PSP background check or to hold a LTCF.
    Last edited by eXceLon; February 11th, 2009 at 07:28 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    Quote Originally Posted by eXceLon View Post
    It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that employees charged with handling/selling firearms should themselves be eligible to own/posses them.
    Current state of the law.

    No need for more
    _________________________________________

    danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
    you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
    Remember Meleanie

  8. #8
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    Quote Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot View Post
    Current state of the law.

    No need for more
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Like many here I tend to favor government regulation towards the light side as a general rule (not necessarily just firearms related), but where we do agree that regulation is necessary I think it's also proper for that regulation to come with some sort of ability to verify and enforce the law. Otherwise, what's the point of having those rules in the first place?

    If a gun store employee has to run a background check against me in order to legally sell me a gun, I don't see why they shouldn't have to go through the same exact process. If anything the proposed law seems more relaxed, as I can't present my LTCF at a gun shop in place of the background check.
    Last edited by eXceLon; February 11th, 2009 at 08:55 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: HB 357 - Relating to Dealer Licensing, Where's our Gorilla

    Quote Originally Posted by eXceLon View Post
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Like many here I tend to favor government regulation towards the light side as a general rule (not necessarily just firearms related), but where we do agree that regulation is necessary I think it's also proper for that regulation to come with some sort of ability to verify and enforce the law. Otherwise, what's the point of having those rules in the first place?

    If a gun store employee has to run a background check against me in order to legally sell me a gun, I don't see why they shouldn't have to go through the same exact process. If anything the proposed law seems more relaxed, as I can't present my LTCF at a gun shop in place of the background check.
    I see your position, but since I am against background checks too you will not win me over with that argument
    _________________________________________

    danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
    you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
    Remember Meleanie

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