Laying it out there on the "Employee Free Choice Act"

[Spishack357]

Let me preface this by saying I'm against unions. I don't hold anything union workers trying to get by and I'm not trying to flame them. Unions in my opinion are a huge drain on society. I'm a construction manager for a merit shop engineering firm. My problem with unions is the increase in cost of a project that is a result of their enourmously inflated wages, rediculous break schedules and dues. I have quoted projects for architects and have saved them at times over 20% just by going merit shop. Wheres the argument? Large companies, Universities and cities have been pressured so much by Unions that they will only allow Union work on their projects (they're afraid of the "rat", pickets and bad pr, childish on the unions part but thats another issue). Unions claim that merit shops have unfair pay scales, don't train their workers and are unsafe. Simply put this is untrue. With all the federal mandates guiding pay rates, safety compliance (osha) and the majority of merit shops do send apprentices to some sort of secondary trade school. What I'm trying to say is merit shops can do equal work (often better) at the same safety levels for cheaper prices.

If this employee free choice act gets passed it will make it infinitely easier for merit shop employees to be bullied, forced, persuaded and conned into voting to make a merit shop union. The act will do this by doing away with secret ballots which means everyone in the company will know how you voted. We all know how peer pressure can effect someone and groupthink can take over.

Obama is trying to unionize this country and this bill will make it infinitely easier for him to do so. Granted I'm no expert but I do pay attention and listen to whats going on. I am really anxious to hear a pro union guy defend this because I cannot think of a single way this can turn out good.

Heres a video, granted its from a business owners perspective but the information is valid.
http://www.abc.org/Government_Affair...rd_Check_.aspx

**Look I didn't even mention employee "forced" choice act"** o wait...

[benc4liberty]

I hate workplace unions. Even more than that, government workplace unions. Fire all union employees!

[LastManOut]

There is nothing wrong with unions, Comrad. That is a lie of the imperalist West.

[Huntingdonhavoc]

I hate workplace unions. Even more than that, government workplace unions. Fire all union employees!

I don't come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand....... sir.

[sluggie24]

The idea of unions is good. Protection of the workers from greedy unethical employers. Sadly however like most everything else they have been corrupted by other greedy people and now probably cause as many problems as they were ment to correct.

The one thing that I always find interesting is how people view unions. Business owners and management usually hate the idea of unions.(probably because they take away some of their power) Working class people usually like unions.(probably because they think they will be able to make more money while doing less work)

In the end both sides are right and wrong. Unions have the ability to do good and bad but they were only invented to fight the bad that was done by companies to the employees years ago. Had the employees never been abused there would be no unions.

[1861]

There is nothing wrong with unions, Comrad. That is a lie of the imperalist West.

good one . REp to you

[LastManOut]

The idea of unions is good. Protection of the workers from greedy unethical employers. Sadly however like most everything else they have been corrupted by other greedy people and now probably cause as many problems as they were ment to correct.

The one thing that I always find interesting is how people view unions. Business owners and management usually hate the idea of unions.(probably because they take away some of their power) Working class people usually like unions.(probably because they think they will be able to make more money while doing less work)

In the end both sides are right and wrong. Unions have the ability to do good and bad but they were only invented to fight the bad that was done by companies to the employees years ago. Had the employees never been abused there would be no unions.

The simple solution for greedy, unethical employers is to quit and go find another job. Negotiate your own workplace conditions. Unions are another form of "nanny" for workers that wish to be paid above their worth, and gangs to threaten open shop (non-union) workers and employers. If the turnover at a business is high, there is a lot of production loss due to re-training workers.

I just love asking pro-union workers if they themselves hire union building tradesmen and mechanics to work on their homes and cars. Guess what they answer 99% of the time.

So taxpayers MUST pay for union wage scale, but union members won't pay the higher scale when it effects them personally? Tsk-tsk?

[Eugene V. Debs]

Let me preface this by saying I'm against unions. I don't hold anything union workers trying to get by and I'm not trying to flame them. Unions in my opinion are a huge drain on society. I'm a construction manager for a merit shop engineering firm.

You're a manager and against unions? What a surprise!

My problem with unions is the increase in cost of a project that is a result of their enourmously inflated wages, rediculous break schedules and dues. I have quoted projects for architects and have saved them at times over 20% just by going merit shop.

Yes, paying people more and giving better benefits costs more. Which is why most managers and business owners despise unions. I get that. I don't represent management. I represent workers.

Large companies, Universities and cities have been pressured so much by Unions that they will only allow Union work on their projects (they're afraid of the "rat", pickets and bad pr, childish on the unions part but thats another issue).

Yep. Union density affects bargaining power. The union's job is to get as much money out of the employer for the workers as it can negotiate, and the employer's job is to keep labor costs as low as possible while still doing a decent job. I can't blame employers for wanting to bust unions-- it's in their interests, but it's not their interests I'm primarily concerned with. Sure, union workers have to be concerned with their employer's interests up to a point-- you can't make them too uncompetitive or you're screwing yourself too-- but the solution to that (from a union perspective) is to organize more competitors and bring their standards up to yours, not the reverse.

Unions claim that merit shops have unfair pay scales, don't train their workers and are unsafe. Simply put this is untrue. With all the federal mandates guiding pay rates,

Are you referring to prevailing wage or minimum wage? In the case of prevailing wage, those tend to be set by union contract in highly unionized areas (and so are higher in union-dense areas), and in the case of minimum wage, it's shit, and the only reason it even exists is because unions demanded it in the 1930s.

safety compliance (osha)

OSHA sucks a dick. We've brought them into shops where exhaust was so bad you could barely breathe (you can actually SEE the pollution sometimes), where toxic chemicals were leaking on the floor, etc. and OSHA gave the employer a clean bill of health. OSHA doesn't even have standards for many things, and the standards they have are a fuckin joke. That's why I tell my union brothers and sisters not to even bother calling OSHA, we'll handle this ourselves.

and the majority of merit shops do send apprentices to some sort of secondary trade school. What I'm trying to say is merit shops can do equal work (often better) at the same safety levels for cheaper prices.

Maybe, I dunno. Building trades unions do have pretty good apprenticeship programs, or so I am told by friends in construction. I'm in an industrial union myself so I can't speak to this directly.

If this employee free choice act gets passed it will make it infinitely easier for merit shop employees to be bullied, forced, persuaded and conned into voting to make a merit shop union.

1. I like how you included "persuaded" along with bullied, forced and conned. Before this I really couldn't really fault you for any of your opinions, coming from a management perspective, but this is bullshit-- persuaded is NOT the fuckin same as being bullied or forced, it's not even close to being the same.

2. Yes I've heard the "bullied, forced and conned" lie being pushed by the anti-union types before. Funny thing is, in about 9 years of organizing I've NEVER seen this happen, NOT ONCE. None of my friends in other unions have ever seen this happen. But hey, unionfacts.com has a video of actors playing mobbed-up union thugs intimidating an actor playing a worker into signing a card so it must be true, right?

The act will do this by doing away with secret ballots which means everyone in the company will know how you voted.

No it will not. This is another lie being peddled by the anti-union groups. Right now an employer has the choice whether to voluntarily recognize a union through a majority of cards signed or to demand an NLRB election. The choice will now go to the workers themselves. If even only 30% of the workers desire a secret-ballot election, that's what they get under EFCA.

We all know how peer pressure can effect someone and groupthink can take over.

So? That's the workers' call. I disagree that a secret-ballot is always "more democratic" than open voting. There are arguments for and against both, and situations where one may be more appropriate than another. The cradle of democracy, Athens, seemed to do pretty well without secret ballots.

Obama is trying to unionize this country and this bill will make it infinitely easier for him to do so.

True and false. EFCA will, in theory at least*, make it easier for workers to organize unions at their workplaces. Obama, however, has no interest in it other than satisfying the unions that turned out votes for him. He's not even gonna push for it that hard-- just watch. The only times he talked about EFCA was in front of union audiences, not in general rallies. From a union perspective, that's a bad sign.

*The rub here is that the employer class has historically been pretty good at getting labor laws interpreted in their favor, so ti remains to be seen just how helpful EFCA will be to organized labor. The interest arbitration part, for example, I see just as likely to work against us as work for us (and I'm against it personally).

Granted I'm no expert but I do pay attention and listen to whats going on. I am really anxious to hear a pro union guy defend this because I cannot think of a single way this can turn out good.

Well, I tried to comply with your request, however, I don't know how productive a debate between the two of us on this topic would be. After all, you've said you're against unions and I'm for them, so our discussion of EFCA will be pretty damn predictable on both sides.

[Eugene V. Debs]

The idea of unions is good. Protection of the workers from greedy unethical employers. Sadly however like most everything else they have been corrupted by other greedy people and now probably cause as many problems as they were ment to correct.

The one thing that I always find interesting is how people view unions. Business owners and management usually hate the idea of unions.(probably because they take away some of their power) Working class people usually like unions.(probably because they think they will be able to make more money while doing less work)

In the end both sides are right and wrong. Unions have the ability to do good and bad but they were only invented to fight the bad that was done by companies to the employees years ago. Had the employees never been abused there would be no unions.

I generally agree with this. Unions, like any organization, are subject to corruption, but obviously I think their good points outweigh the negatives.

[Eugene V. Debs]

The simple solution for greedy, unethical employers is to quit and go find another job. Negotiate your own workplace conditions.

That's one option, sure. But collective bargaining tends to be much more effective, especially for unskilled and semiskilled workers, than individual bargaining. It can also provide significant advantages for many skilled workers. And, well, some people value the effectiveness collective bargaining above individualistic, free-market ideology.

And in an isolated "company town" going and getting a better job may not even be an option. Go to a coal operator town out in the mountains and see how well that option works for most people.