Citation at a State Game Land Range

**kevindsingleton** · February 3rd, 2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by CommonHighrise

FWIW, if I were feeling all boyscout-ish, could there be an issue if I took it upon myself to clean off the 'marker vandalism' from the orange signs at my SGL? Just wanna do my part.

I would expect that any attempt to alter the signs would be construed as vandalism, itself, and would be prosecuted, if discovered.

There are better ways to put a stop to this sort of stupidity. Let's get to work on our legislators, instead of trying to "beat the system".

Besides, if you can remove Magic Marker ink from paper, you should focus your new efforts on unringing bells, so we can do away with Planned Parenthood! ;>)

**Dredly** · February 3rd, 2009, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by reverserboy

This is nonsense. Removing the mag, working the action & looking into the breech is probably a better way to clear a firearm than counting shots.

I usually avoid PGC ranges because of the assholes who sometimes use them & the overzelous game officers.

I agree with both statements... and I think statement one is explained clearly by statement 2 :P

**Dredly** · February 3rd, 2009, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by kevindsingleton

The PGC officer knew the revolver wasn't fully loaded, since he'd already witnessed the discharge of four rounds, so I agree that, if safety were the main concern, he reasonably should have stopped the shooting after four rounds were fired. Isn't it his sworn duty to stop violations as soon as they are recognized?

It could be argued that the officer had a motive other than safety, or enforcing the range rules, based on his failure to stop the infraction, immediately. I don't know if that line of reasoning will sway a magistrate, but it's worth a try. Of course, since the magistrate likely gets a cut of the fine and fees, "revenue enhancement" is probably a valid motive in the eyes of the court.

I don't understand why you'd be admonished for quickly changing mags in your AK. Based on the range rules, that's precisely what you're expected to do, if you can only load three rounds at a time in your magazines. That sounds like another PGC officer being an unnecessarily complete jerk.

We really should organize an approach to our legislators regarding the SGLs. We pay for them, so we should have some say in how they're administered. Heck, I pay for them, and I don't even use them, and I still want to improve this process.

I'll write a letter to my state rep and senator, and see what they say. Does anyone have enough legalese to compose an appropriate letter?

- Actually just about all (if not all) PGC "actions" are reactionary. they rarely check licenses in the early AM during season, they check them in the afternoons, they don't check your gun when you get out of the truck, they check it when you are in the field, they wait till you shoot something to arrest you for poaching,... none of their actions are proactive.

- Stopping a shooter before they are done is just asking for trouble. If he wanted to give a citation he is 100% correct in waiting for that shooter to finish firing and holster or put the weapon down. Especially considering how loved game wardens are :P

**Poonie** · February 3rd, 2009, 01:05 PM

Unless this place is a specified "handgun range" then its three rounds max whether handgun or rifle. Now if there is a sign that says 6 max in handgun, 3 in rifle, then by all means fight that in court.

I find the PGC officers to be blatant morons. Had one hassle me one time while I was shooting my .357 at French creek. I shot 3, reloaded, shot 3 more, reloaded, shot 3 more. Barney Fife then approached and started reading me the riot act about loading more than 3 rounds, etc. I turn and said simply "count how many empties you see here. There are nine, correct? Thats 3 times 3. I did not load more than 3 at time". Guy acted as if I were lying". Then a guy I know who frequents there stepped in and told the man that I am one of the few who obeys the rules. The officer then walked away. Of course but not before trying to "give me a warning"...to which I replied "for what, you just had a witness that I did nothing wrong".....They're all a bunch of idiots. Another reason I don't go there anymore.

**AxiTech** · February 3rd, 2009, 09:56 PM

A bunch of years ago, at the range at Nockamixon I had a run-in with a Game Officer. He sat in his truck and waited until me and a buddy stopped shooting, cleaned up our gear and walked over to our vehicles. My buddy had an AR15 in 9mm and a .44 mag six gun in a holster. Holster was wrapped around the gun. I had about 5 or 6 pistols with me that day. My buddy put his guns in his trunk and closed it. Game Warden walks up and asks if the guns were empty. Buddy tells him the truth, rifle empty, pistol always is full as it's his home defense gun and he lives in a bad neighborhood. Game Warden makes him open the trunk, takes the gun, removes ammo (keeps it for 'evidence") and puts the gun back in trunk. Starts writing citation for loaded gun in vehicle or some such nonsense. We both made pretty good money back then so it wasn't a huge deal, more of a pain in the butt, and besides, nobody was going to jail.
As soon as he finishes with my buddy I start asking questions, friendly stuff, but leading him to where i wanted him. You can't carry in a car? Why not? What if you have a permit( I was dumb back then ,too)?
he finally asks if I'm carrying. Yes, and I swept my jacket back to show him one of the guns on my belt. Heasks for my 'permit'. While he is looking at it, I ask if I'm allowed to have ALL my pistols loaded in my car. He looks dumbfounded, and asks "ALL"? I said yea, I got like 6 of 'em! I thought he was going to either pull a Barney Fife and start fishing in his shirt pocket for his one live round or crap himself. "What? Six guns? ON YOU? RIGHT NOW? "Sure, why ?"
He starts in with the whole line about the 'permit' allows me to carry ONE gun. I show him where it states 'firearms (plural)'. He was not happy, but he lost round 2 when he got to me. I only did it because I felt he was being a prick. He could have explained the law and won two lifelong supporters, but ,NO, he had to be a tough guy.
Oh, yeah, I do have issues with authority types who think they RULE over us! It's a character flaw , I guess!

**terrible1** · February 3rd, 2009, 10:06 PM

I'm actually thinking of going there tomorrow now just to check it out. I got site my AR anyways.

Will they get pissed it I have 6 mag's with all loaded with 3 rounds and keep switching them???

**Poonie** · February 4th, 2009, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by terrible1

I'm actually thinking of going there tomorrow now just to check it out. I got site my AR anyways.

Will they get pissed it I have 6 mag's with all loaded with 3 rounds and keep switching them???

Nope, you're within the rules. As long as no more than 3 per mag, no wrong done.

**tl_3237** · February 5th, 2009, 02:22 PM

I don't expect OP to reply until he clears with lawyer but I open this up to others on the forum.

IANAL but as I understand it violation of 058 Pa Code 135.181 regarding number of rounds in a weapon at SGL range is a summary offence of the fifth degree per its enabling statute:

34 Pa.C.S.A. § 721 Control of property

(a) General rule.--The administration of all lands or waters owned, leased or otherwise controlled by the commission shall be under the sole control of the director, and the commission shall promulgate regulations consistent with the purpose of this title for its use and protection as necessary to properly manage these lands or waters. The acquisition, use and management of such lands or waters owned, leased or otherwise controlled by the commission, including timber cutting and crop cultivation, shall not be subject to regulation by counties or municipalities.

(b) Penalty.--A violation of regulations promulgated under subsection (a) is a summary offense of the fifth degree.

An S5 has a penalty of a $75-200 fine. Can't understand how this would result in a 'criminal record' as OP relates. http://forum.pafoa.org/question-answ...a-gun-law.html

Anyone care to elaborate.