CC in a place that clearly posts a no guns sign.

[bripro]

I noticed at my Doctors office and the physical therapy place they sent me there is a big no guns sign clearly posted in the door window. Its basically the round red circle with a slash in the middle with a picture of a revolverlver. So is it legal for me to have a gun CCd there? I realize its against there policy but is it legal. If not I could play dumb and say I thought it meant no revolvers, my gun is a semi automatic.

[imperialism2024]

Well...

Just because there is a "no guns" sign, it is not a prohibited place. That is, you could not be charged with "unlawful carry of a firearm" or such for carrying there.

Now, if you were caught carrying there, and you were asked to leave by a representative of the owner, and you chose not to leave, you could have been cited for trespass.

It has been suggested that if you were to suffer some injury as a result of carrying there (i.e. you are pepper sprayed by a member of the staff because he sees you printing), the "no guns" sign may help absolve the company of some or all liability. I was never too clear on that one...

But to answer your question, it is generally not illegal to carry in a business in Pennsylvania posted as "no guns", though other complications could arise.


One note of caution regarding hospitals, though: make sure to avoid MRI machines, as giant magnets and handguns don't tend to mix very well.

[JCWohlschlag]

....

Also, posted signs hold no legal weight in PA, the management must tell someone specifically that they are not permitted to bring a weapon into the building and ask the person to leave before they can do anything more.

......

Please stop saying this, it's not necessarily true, no matter how many times it's repeated.

If you carry a gun into a place that is posted against guns, you could arguably be prosecuted under the trespassing statute, for doing something on the property that you have been placed on notice you are without license to do.

Signs have legal weight. The signs in the parking garage that say "not responsible for lost items" have legal weight. Signs are not a legal nullity, and in the absence of case law interpreting the trespassing statute to clearly negate the "no guns" signs, we do a disservice to people by giving them the false sense of confidence that they are free to ignore these signs.

It's true that other states have specific statutes giving weight to these specific signs, and PA does not have such a law. However, that's not the same as saying that there's no operative difference between having a sign and not having a sign. You can't be prosecuted in PA under the "disobeying a no weapons sign" statute because there is none, but we do have a "trespassing" statute. A sign puts you on notice as to the terms of the permission granted to you to use the private property of another. If you go outside those terms of use, you are trespassing.

This is a legal matter, it's a legal conclusion, and you need to have a firm legal basis before telling anyone that it's safe to say "screw you" to a property owner and make him tell you face-to-face what his sign already advised you.

18 Pa.C.S. § 3503

(b) Defiant trespasser.--

(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;

[evilfij]

18 Pa.C.S. § 3503

(b) Defiant trespasser.--

(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;

I don't think anyone has been charged under that statute for doing what he suggests (at least not to my knowledge).

[jahwarrior72]

for all practical purposes, signs have no legal weight. i'm sure that if you were discovered, and the owner or manager of the business really was determned to press the issue, you might possibly be charged with some type of offense. but the chances of that are pretty slim, i think. just conceal well, to avoid the issue.

[JCWohlschlag]

I don't think anyone has been charged under that statute for doing what he suggests (at least not to my knowledge).

You are correct. We do not have any known case law precedent to tell us for sure whether it is safe to ignore “no guns” signs or not, but taking into account the opinion of a lawyer that specializes in firearms and the rather clear-cut language of the trespassing law, it seems that it would not be very difficult at all for them to make such a charge stick. Perhaps the reason this has not been tested in court is because it is just easier to have the police or management ask you to leave, then charge you when/if you refuse. I don’t know. I just wanted to put the nitty-gritty of it out there so the original poster can make his/her own informed decision.

[NY Refugee]

I don't think anyone has been charged under that statute for doing what he suggests (at least not to my knowledge).

So who wants to be the first. In todays world of legal activisum I would not be surprised if someone decided to push the issue for their own agenda.
And I read on this sight all the time people spouting about property rights.
Well those rights also go to people who do not wish to have people carrying on their property or establishment, I may not like or agree with someone not wanting me to carry on their property but I will respect their rights as I expect them to respect mine.

To just ignore someone's property rights because we disagree is not the correct answer either.
Go in and ask someone about why the sign is up and see if they will allow you to carry on their premises, don't carry or go someplace that will let you carry.

[Tootie]

Here is a suggestion for you at places like this that you have to go to.

My gym has a no guns policy, they do not have a sign up it's in the contract you sign (hidden in the long text I might add). Well I carry everywhere including going to the gym. I told the owner that I carry and asked if it would be ok to leave my mag locked in the car but to bring my firearm in to the gym. I told him that if I locked it in the trunk someone could see me doing this and could steal it from my car. He agreed without any hesitations. Might be something to consider.

[shefearsnothing]

As a rule we try not to go to places that don't allow firearms. Even the post office...there's always a mail boxes etc or something along those lines around as an alternative. In your case I realize it may be an insurance issue though. I'm just saying, especially with the sign, it's an open invitation for criminals.

[LittleRedToyota]

18 Pa.C.S. § 3503

(b) Defiant trespasser.--

(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;

i changed the portion highlighted...

does a "no guns" sign really "give notice against trespassing"?

i still say "no". it doesn't mention anything about anyone not coming on the property. an actual "no trespassing" sign or an "authorized personnel only" sign, etc. "gives notice against trespassing". but, a sign that just says "no guns" or doesn't say anything at all, but just has pictures on it, in my non-lawyer humble opinion, does not. (of course, courts might disagree.)

gunlawyer is a smart guy and has a great point and everyone should take his post to heart.

however, no one has ever been prosecuted for it (or at least no one has ever heard of such a case). also, loss prevention people are routinely trained that "trespassing" does not occur until the person is asked to leave and refuses.

having said all that:

1. imho, everyone should respect private property rights an not carry a gun where the property owner wishes them not to.

2. i would not spend my money at a place with a "no-guns" sign anywhere. i'd find another place to spend my money that does not have a "no-guns" sign.