Most Reliable rifle, Thats not an AK

[Ophidian]

You mention that the AR in the right hands (read: someone who takes really good care of it) will function perfectly fine. I fully agree with you on this, however, I would imagine that in a combat situation, you wouldn't want to have to worry about cleaning your weapon every night before you fall asleep in a cave to try and get a few hours of shut eye before you have to go at it again.

I have zero combat experience and this is just me making an assumption, but I feel that not needing to take care of a gun and have it work perfectly fine would be a very large bonus in a real combat situation.

(If you haven't noticed, I am a total AK/Glock fanboy)

[Dredly]

If the AK was not invented another weapon would have been invented, probably more in line with a fully automatic SKS with a higher mag capacity / detachable mag. Its a reliable platform with enough accuracy

[NineseveN]

You mention that the AR in the right hands (read: someone who takes really good care of it) will function perfectly fine.

Don't distort my argument by inserting "really good" into the notion of a rifle being properly maintained. I never said that, there's proper maintenance and then there's kid glove care, only one is required to keep a fully functioning rifle.

I fully agree with you on this, however, I would imagine that in a combat situation, you wouldn't want to have to worry about cleaning your weapon every night before you fall asleep in a cave to try and get a few hours of shut eye before you have to go at it again.

Again, a gross dramaticization of the argument. An AR need not be cleaned every night, not even in a combat situation. But one must know how to maintain their rifle so that they understand when it does need cleaned or when some other form of maintenance should be done so that when they are stuck ina cave for days on end, expending a few hundred rounds in the process, they won't have any problems. If an AR is properly maintained, it will fire the entire sum of what any soldier would normally carry in ammunition without missing a beat and not need nightly cleaning.

I have zero combat experience and this is just me making an assumption, but I feel that not needing to take care of a gun and have it work perfectly fine would be a very large bonus in a real combat situation.

But that's not true with any firearm. The AK-47 often needs less attention because of the loose tolerances, but there is a failure point. The thing is, this is determined by more variants than you can count. The point to maintaining your weapon is not because your gun will surely fail, it's because any weapon can fail, so it doesn't matter what platform you run, if you don't perform maintenance, your being foolish and taking a gamble either way. The FAL I mentioned earlier, Ol' Dirty, has gone 10,000+ rounds without a cleaning, without so much as a decent lube job. It slept in a puddle in the owner's back yard and is full of all kinds of sludge and crud. It still functions, but it could very easily fail on the very next round. You can't know that, so for a weapon you depend on to save your life, you should be mindful of that. Anyone who owns an AK situated for defensive purposes and doesn't maintain it is being very naive and foolish IMHO.

(If you haven't noticed, I am a total AK/Glock fanboy)

I think I picked up on that.

[Mity2]

My first AK (Mac 90) was jom-o-matic. Honestly.
It never shot all 30rds without jamming on me 2 or 3 times.
This was especialy so, if I rapid fire the thing.
My SKS on the other hand, it NEVER jammed anyway shape or form.
Except once, but it was primer failed to go off. thats not gun's fault.

My current AK(Polish Tantal) has so far been jam free. Does have nagging keyholing issue once barrel gets too hot tho..

My preivious AR never jammed, but I lovingly cleaned it with expensive cleaner, lubed it with expensive oil, inspected each ammo(never used serplus, but winchester - no reload) for nicks or discoloration, hand wiped ammo before it went in to mag, quick shot of lube in to action before I shot it. So i donno how it would acted if it was in negrected condition...


If there was no AK? my vote will be with either SKS or Mosin Nagant

[arrrrgh15]

I was thinking, what would be the most reliable rifle out there, that is not an ak47. Example being, if the AK had never been created, what would have been used like the ak is used? I was thinking maybe the FAL?

It's not about the Russians, not about there line of guns at all, just the single most reliable weapon out there, pick it up pull the trigger and BANG. (thats not the AK of course)

Oh Boy!!! These threads always crack me up.

The post above seems to insinuate that the AK 47 is the most reliable piece of junk out there.

Ever notice how everyone claiming that the AK is the most reliable weapon out there never actually trained with it and used it in combat. Any former Soviet soldiers out there want to chime in? Any Chinese?

Its always some guy that took it to the range and fired 1000 rounds through it without cleaning it. Big fucking deal.

Or somebody telling a story that they read in a book somewhere about a guy who said he heard that the vietcong used to bury them in the mud and then dig them up later and fire them at US troops.

Or somebody posting a youtube video of an AK firing a gazillion rounds without a hickup.

Yet I'd be willing to bet MOST civilian "AK47" owners out there never really put their weapon through "hard use" or "combat conditions".

And oddly enough, there is always the person that comes crawling out of the woodwork that personally witnessed the AK go tits up. Myself included. Yet those people are obviously "telling stories".

Then the thread immediately turns into an M16 bash session. Same deal. Someone will post a youtube video of some retards from a maintenance unit firing their M16s that they get to see once a year when they qualify and bitching about how they jam. We used to refer to these folks as "REMFs" or "Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers". Why, because they were worthless when it came to operating the M16. Could change a tire or drive a truck like a champ I bet. In the end, they're just pissed off because they got yanked from college or their job at mcdonalds to go across the world and live in a desert without playstation.

Remember, the military collects warm bodies from society in general. You have folks that have never fired a weapon in their life. You have people that barely know how to tie their boot laces. Window lickers, paste eaters. Get it? Yet these are the same dumbasses that complain about the M16 jamming. They're the same folks that complain because they still can't figure out how to get a 6 digit grid coordinate. For crying out loud I saw a first sergeant try to put the bolt in backwards. I'll bet he'll be along shortly to complain that the m16 is "too complicated". It's not too complicated, he just lacks the cranial capacity to operate it properly. It's not the weapons fault, its the jerk using it.

From my personal experience, I've seen M16s fired repeatedly until the barrels were glowing. This, after a day of crawling under concertina wire, through mud, and dragging it across rocks. When I was the gunner in the humvee mine use to get tossed in the back seat where it would sit all day long. Back then, we used to take the doors off the humvee so that we could jump in and out of the vehicle quickly and quietly. So after a day of collecting dust from the tank trails, it would be covered with a fine powder, inside and out. Yet it would still go bang when I pulled the trigger.

I must be crazy or exagerating.

Nineseven explained it pretty well. The AK was built with loose tollerances so it could be manufactured in crappy communist factories across the world, then handed to a fella that "really doesn't want to be there" and could really care less about guns and maintenance. Or handed to some guy in africa that's one generation away from swinging through the fucking trees.

The military doctrine of the country that developed the weapon was to have troops running out of BMPs firing the weapon on full auto while they ran. That's why the selector switch on the AK47 goes SAFE-AUTO-SEMI. Spray and pray, make it to cover, and hope that there's more of you than them.

Both weapons were designed for a different intended use. Period. Each weapon has its good points and it's bad points. I'm not anti AK47. I'm just sick of all the BS that surrounds it.

I put as much faith in the AK reliability stories as I do the M16 unreliability stories. In the end, they are just that. Stories.

So to answer the questions, what's the most reliable weapon out there that's not an AK? MINE! They always go bang when I want them to, and that's enough for me.

Rant over.

I'll be waiting for the thread on how the Dragonov is the "greatest sniper weapon in the world".

[meanmotorscooter]

Again, a gross dramaticization of the argument. An AR need not be cleaned every night, not even in a combat situation.

Really? Have you ever carried the AR in bad conditions like mud and rain or desert sand storms? The AR would be great in my opinion if they would change it to a gas piston design. That tiny gas tube just isn't conducive to reliability in my opinion.

[625]

Most bolt action rifles, and doubles used for dagerous game hunting are more reliable than anything else out there including AK's from what I've seen and read.

If you are talking about semi-auto rifles, Browning BAR's and M1/M14's seem to be reliable.

[NineseveN]

Really? Have you ever carried the AR in bad conditions like mud and rain or desert sand storms?

Not relevant. I realize that as a Marine who possibly has carried the weapon through such conditions that you might claim to have superior first-hand experience in the matter, thus making my opinion moot. And if we were talking about a singular event, I'd actually agree. But in this case, singular accounts not compared against the whole amount to anecdotal evidence, which is to say, utter garbage. If you have a single person claiming to have been present for a singular event (i.e. a witness to a specific armed robbery), then their perspective carries great weight. However, if we’re talking about a large number of experiences, say the average procedure for out-patient childbirth in this country, then one person’s account really means nothing at all. Sorry if that kinda dulls the luster for some of you, but that’s the way things are analyzed. And if we want to throw credentials or experience around, that’s what I do, I’m an analyst.

The overwhelming majority of reports and accounts from actual soldiers and tests indicate that the AR is a fully-functioning weapon, even in sub-optimal conditions, as long as it is in hands that will maintain the weapon. Think of it this way, a Toyota Camry might get 300,000 miles, except of course if the idiot owner never checks or changes the oil or coolant and ignores the warning lights on the dash.

And no, I haven’t seen anything substantial to indicate that an AR must be cleaned every night while in the present desert theater. I’ve seen where smart soldiers say they check, clean and maintain their weapon whenever they can during downtime…but that’s because they’re smart and realize that you cannot predict when any weapon will fail, no matter how reliable it’s reputation suggests that it is so they might as well stack the deck in their favor as much as possible since we all start out somewhat behind the curve in the first place.



FWIW, I’m an M14 fan, but I’m not about to willfully blind myself just to play favorites. I don’t really like shooting AR’s, they’re just not comfortable, and I don’t necessarily like the 5.56 round for combat (prefer a 6.5Grendel or a .308), but the gun does what it does to the best of the ability of those who are out in harm’s way. I think the AR makes the perfect home defense weapon for most people, and it works well enough in combat that I can’t and won’t rag on it too much (especially since I’m not there), but I still have the rounds and platforms that I hold closer to my id than any other.

[justsayno]

I was thinking, what would be the most reliable rifle out there, that is not an ak47. Example being, if the AK had never been created, what would have been used like the ak is used? I was thinking maybe the FAL?

It's not about the Russians, not about there line of guns at all, just the single most reliable weapon out there, pick it up pull the trigger and BANG. (thats not the AK of course)

So, your saying , you want to know what gun takes the #2 spot...

[SilentRage]

For me I would have to say bolt action rifles , quick and easy to clean
when you need to !