Two questions

**hiflyf22** · January 13th, 2009, 12:42 AM

1) What is preemption?

2) What is considered concealed? If it is covered by an inch by a jacket, etc.

**ScaredOnce** · January 13th, 2009, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by hiflyf22

1) What is preemption?

http://search.pafoa.org/?q=what+is+preemption

Originally Posted by hiflyf22

2) What is considered concealed? If it is covered by an inch by a jacket, etc.

Concealed means concealed. (not being smart in this one, no one knows you have it but you.)

**Emptymag** · January 13th, 2009, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by ScaredOnce

http://search.pafoa.org/?q=what+is+preemption[/url]

Concealed means concealed. (not being smart in this one, no one knows you have it but you.)

No, I don't think that's what he's getting at.

I can see where some could consider a handgun that is partly covered as "concealed", or an "attempt to conceal".

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't have a LTCF, you'd do good to be sure that it's completely in the open.

**ScaredOnce** · January 13th, 2009, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Emptymag

No, I don't think that's what he's getting at.

I can see where some could consider a handgun that is partly covered as "concealed", or an "attempt to conceal".

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't have a LTCF, you'd do good to be sure that it's completely in the open.

I see your point, I framed it from my perspective. EM is right. If your aim is to err on the side of unconcealed (OC), be certain that any setup you use is far from being considered concealed.

From the other perspective, CC should be the perfect balance of access and stealth.

**JCWohlschlag** · January 13th, 2009, 08:13 PM

I will try to answer as simply as possible.

Originally Posted by hiflyf22

1) What is preemption?

Preemption is a condition where the law of a larger jurisdiction trumps the law of a smaller jurisdiction, even if the smaller jurisdiction’s law is more restrictive. Normally, when you are subject to the laws of multiple jurisdictions (i.e., federal, state, and municipal), you must abide by all of them including the most restrictive.

In the context of this site, most all references to preemption refer to 18 Pa.C.S. § 6120, which is a state (i.e., the larger jurisdiction) law that prohibits any county, municipality, or township (i.e., the smaller jurisdiction) from regulating the lawful ownership, possession, transfer, or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components. This is commonly referred to as the preemption statute because it makes all of the state laws that regulate what is listed preempt any municipal laws that may be more restrictive, thereby nullifying them.

Originally Posted by hiflyf22

2) What is considered concealed? If it is covered by an inch by a jacket, etc.

As far as I know, the law regards “concealed” as any manner that makes it likely that a reasonable person would not know you are carrying a firearm through normal observation. A holster in plain view would not conceal the firearm if it is readily identifiable as a firearm holster. Having the grip of the firearm sticking out of your waistband is not considered concealed since a reasonable person can still see that it is a firearm that is in your waistband. The borderline between openly carrying and concealed carrying is one of those gray areas that can only really be fully defined by case law. In general, however, if you ask yourself if anyone just seeing you would readily know that you are carrying a firearm, and the answer is no, then you are carrying concealed. The size of the safety margin you want for yourself in this gray area is up to you.

I apologize if these answers ended up being not that simple, but unfortunately, that is how the law works.

**hiflyf22** · January 13th, 2009, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by JCWohlschlag

I will try to answer as simply as possible.
...
I apologize if these answers ended up being not that simple, but unfortunately, that is how the law works.

That's pretty much exactly what I was looking for, man. Thanks so much for the info.

Rep sent.

**hiflyf22** · January 22nd, 2009, 01:54 AM

Okay, so along with the preemption thing I noticed something today. Around where I live, Beaver Falls, PA, there is a sign posted in White Township alongside a road that states that there are to be no firearms fired within township limits. Sorry I couldn't find the actual wording online Does this mean that when a person fires a firearm in self defense that they're in violation of this law?

Is this an example of preemption?

**1shot1kill** · January 22nd, 2009, 10:37 AM

No townships may regulate the discharge of firearms however in that scenario Self defense is a justifiable defense provided you can prove it. Just like with killing someone in self defense; you still have committed murder so you can still be charged, it then falls upon you to prove that it was a clear case of self defense. The same principal works with the ordinances on the discharging of firearms