Firearms training

[27hand]

Frenchy oh Frenchy,

Where to begin?

Deepcharge41,Stargazer,dgg9, thanks for your replies. Thank you also for staying on track with what the post was actually about. I replied too quickly to 45-70's post, didn't mean to come on so strong with the W word. I'm guessing that all of you know how I feel about the choice of words I used.

Ice, I almost went with what you posted but I knew someone would. Us AF guys were not subjected to that but had to qualify just the same. My basic started 9Jan69.

Now, let's get back to my old buddy and webmaster, Frenchy.

Frenchy, you did in fact learn it wrong. There is hope for you however, and I can be your firearms salvation. At minimal cost of course.

You state that we as NRA members are not trained in the art of (I'll use your choice of words here,not mine) killing.
You evidently think of using deadly force to keep from being injured, raped, wounded by someone with any device as an art. Included in your art statement you continue with telling me that NRA uses firearms for sport and defense needs. Now I can agree with you on the sporting aspect but answer me this. How do you defend yourself from a violent attack? Do you say "Stay your hand,you foul person who is sticking your knife into my chest or I will be forced to use my super hooty explosion activated projectile discharging device"? The judge will almost certainly let you go for not using the word "Weapon" but does your super hooty explosion activated projectile discharging device become what you are hesitant to say? Yes It becomes a defensive Weapon. And yes, you are using it to assault someone who is trying to injure or kill you.

No charge for that observation.

Mindset. You haven't a clue have you besides your definition out of Websters?
All those years of internet law school and look what you say.
I'm going to quote you a definition of what Col. Jeff Cooper describes as mindset. This by the way will hold up in court as any professional trainer will testify that this is what is taught to survive an attack.

"Mindset is the key to crisis management. Proper mental conditioning allows competence, rather than only chance,to increase the probability of survival.
PRE-PLANNING or PRE-THOUGHT logic of crisis behavior actions,coupled with environmental awareness,has shown to be a great tactical advantage to winners of lethal confrontations".(caps mine)

This does NOT mean that you were waiting to use deadly force as you suggest as pre meditation. It means you trained to do whatever it takes to survive an attack so that training kicks in automatically when forced to do so.

When I posted that I am training to live and hope to be ready in case I am attacked (did you not see the part that says "I hope I never have to"), it does not even remotely suggest I am looking to be in that situation.

Frenchy, do you know it legal to use deadly force to protect yourself and your family? To do so has to be without question the last thing you do after all options of disengaging a bad guy or getting away unscathed are no longer able to be done. This is an extreme situation. It is not normal as human beings to want to take a life but you also by law do not have to lay down and die because you have been targeted.

I took your defence mechanism statement with a grain of salt.
I really like super hooty explosion activated projectile discharging device and thank you for the opportunity to use it. Saying Defence mechanism is like trying to be politically correct after having to defend yourself. As for saying in court that you used a weapon, here's a news flash. Any trainer worth teaching students is taught the following. Give the officers your name and any info related to where you live. Then SHUT YOUR MOUTH. SAY NOTHING besides " I'm very sorry officer, but my Attorney has advised me that if I am ever involved in or witness to, any kind of shooting, I am not to make any statements to anyone or answer any questions of any kind until I have spoken to him". They will then leave you alone unless you were a real idiot and did something incredibly stupid.

As far as your definitions for me. I shouldn't take it personal but it is a little irritating to have you spew forth this type of condescending post (at least that's the way I read it).

Your last paragraph sounds like more political sheeplespeak.That's my opinion.

I also think that you Frenchy would benefit tremendously by taking a tactical pistol class. It would open your eyes,change your outlook, educate you in some legal issues regarding the use of deadly force,develop your mindset,and if nothing else, teach you how to correctly manipulate your super hooty explosion activated projectile discharging device so your score will improve on Bib's range.

To all readers of this post. What you have read in this post is all my OPINION. You don't have to agree with any of it,but don't try to force me to change my opinion or verbage because you disagree with it.

45-70, I guess the earlier posters took what I said about the NRA instructors the way I meant it. Not mean or abusive, just an observation that I disagreed with. I heard a story that one set of NRA instructors charged each student a dollar each time they said weapon. A guy (probably like me) gave them a $20.
I found humor in that story.

Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like buying a piano and thinking you are a musician (Col. Jeff Cooper USMC Ret.)


Later listers,

Hans

[Frenchy]

Frenchy oh Frenchy,


Ice, I almost went with what you posted but I knew someone would. Us AF guys were not subjected to that but had to qualify just the same. My basic started 9Jan69.

Now, let's get back to my old buddy and webmaster, Frenchy.

Frenchy, you did in fact learn it wrong. There is hope for you however, and I can be your firearms salvation. At minimal cost of course.


Mindset. You haven't a clue have you besides your definition out of Websters?
All those years of internet law school and look what you say.
I'm going to quote you a definition of what Col. Jeff Cooper describes as mindset. This by the way will hold up in court as any professional trainer will testify that this is what is taught to survive an attack.

"Mindset is the key to crisis management. Proper mental conditioning allows competence, rather than only chance,to increase the probability of survival.


Any trainer worth teaching students is taught the following. Give the officers your name and any info related to where you live. Then SHUT YOUR MOUTH. SAY NOTHING besides " I'm very sorry officer, but my Attorney has advised me that if I am ever involved in or witness to, any kind of shooting, I am not to make any statements to anyone or answer any questions of any kind until I have spoken to him". They will then leave you alone unless you were a real idiot and did something incredibly stupid.

As far as your definitions for me. I shouldn't take it personal but it is a little irritating to have you spew forth this type of condescending post (at least that's the way I read it).

Your last paragraph sounds like more political sheeplespeak.That's my opinion.

Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like buying a piano and thinking you are a musician (Col. Jeff Cooper USMC Ret.)


Later listers,

Hans

Your answers refer in 3 places to military and/or military personnel. We live in a civilian world, I am not training to go to Iraq, and as for Bib's range... Bib knows better then any one that I shoot to better understand the sport. Not to better defend my self. For me to have shot the one shoot I did at IDPA and think it was for anything else then pure enjoyment would be a farce.

In a military world, your definitions are correct, as for the rest of us who live a regular world as civilians, the definition I posted is correct.

Don’t get me wrong, when I speak to my step son, I speak about weapons, when I speak to Bib, I speak about guns. Stepson is Army, Bib is not. Maybe he was at one time, but he no longer is.

The NRA has reasons to not use or want the use of Weapon and I believe I stated them correctly. As you say, your opinion, you have a right to it, but if you ever go to court and say "super hooty explosion activated projectile discharging device" you might as well have said weapon, as the judge will look at you with contempt. Where as saying defensive devices, defensive mechanism, defensive maneuvers, are legal terms. Could mean I hid behind a wall, could mean I threw darts could mean I used a piece of wood, sand or a gun to defend my self. The only people who would call these weapons are the same people who want to remove your right to bear arms. Using the right terms and words can make or break how people think of what you are saying.

Using the NRA terms, even if they are politically correct will not harm you as much as it will protect you. The training you are doing I agree will help if in a confrontation, and I probably would learn a great deal from it If I planned on getting in a position where my only chance of survival was shooting back. As I tend to place my self in a world where this is not my only option, the little practice I do will work for me against some one who has even less experience or practice. Who does not know I am armed, and who does not know my home or the surroundings the way I do.

FYI: I am ex Black Watch, when I was military, I did speak in terms of weapons, I did learn the proper terminology and fully understand my right to defend my self, even if it means removing an other persons life as a civilian if I was forced to that. That was the Biblical quote I showed. Murder vs. Killing.

As far as calling me an Internet lawyer.. Believe me, I in no way pretend to be a lawyer, I in no way pretend to understand the law more then others.
Mind you, occurrence proves me right. If a large group like the NRA and other groups including the Second Amendment Sisters, who can afford lawyers believes what they say when they say as American civilians, we own guns and have the right to bear arms, they are stating it in a way that is real to our world and in terms that have a legal reasoning. Otherwise they would say we can have weapons and can use them any way we want.

I find you’re belittling of my being a webmaster quite insulting as it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Possibly it helps build up your ego to think you can talk like that freely and get a chuckle from some people. To the best of my knowledge we do not frequent each other..So how can I be your Ol friend? At most, we belong to the same club.

At any rate, you have the right to your way of life, to your free speech and to your opinions. If it makes you a better shooter to have a weapon and believe saying a gun, rifle or shotgun or even a defensive mechanism makes you a lesser person so be it.

If you ever go to court for self defence, I want to be invited, I want to see the Judge's face when you say "I had the mindset by training to pull out my weapon and murder the intruder."
Its all the same meaning, but sure sounds better to me.

"I was forced into a confrontation where my only defence mechanism was to find a barricade and use my gun to protect my life and loved ones. In doing so my aggressor was shot and died"

[dgg9]

If you ever go to court for self defence, I want to be invited, I want to see the Judge's face when you say "I had the mindset by training to pull out my weapon and murder the intruder."

I think the point is: your court room strategy is different than your training mindset. If your training mindset is premised on the same mealy-mouthed, evasive, PC homilies that are used in court, you will very likely not live to even see your day in court.

The NRA is a large, well-known organization, and as such, has to soft sell certain realities (street mindset). Further, training people for real world self defense is not their primary job; political lobbying is. Therefore what they say can't be taken as gospel.

Rather, you should look at the many top shelf trainers out there, who do nothing else but train citizens, LE, military for self defense: Jeff Gonzales, Tom Givens, John Farnam, Gabe Suarez, et al. You won't find any wishy washy mindset statements from them. Every one of them will tell you that at the moment of Condition Black, your mind has to be clear and purposeful, and completely stripped of all the all lawyerly hedging and evasions. Then they will tell you that, AFTER the shooting, you need to adopt your "managing the aftermath" strategy. But your "moment of self defense" strategy can't be identical to your courtroom/arraignment strategy, otherwise you won't even make it to the latter.

[27hand]

Frenchy,

My referencing to military was:

#1 in response to Icefire's military (and your) military background.
#2 What one retired military trainer quotes as how he teaches mindset. (Col Cooper by the way is given credit as the man who put together the teaching of the modern method or technique.
#3 His name again as a quote which is completely true. Many people buy a defensive mechanical device as a magic talisman thinking it will protect them from all harm, have no training and go on their merry way.

Yes you are correct in that we are not old buddies but you seem like it from your updates of GPGC activities as their webmaster. I can't understand how you take that as insulting unless it's just a response to my taking your original post as condescending, which I still think it was meant to be.

I'm glad that you finally acknowledged that what I posted was my opinion and yes you can disagree with me as is your right.

The internet lawyer thing was a jab as you told me specifically that premeditation would put me in jail. That is legal advice of which you have no training to do so. I believe you also referenced other legalese and in other threads.

Frenchy, You came on like gangbusters,grabbing the banner and charging up the hill to totally discredit my post, one line at a time. A good friend of mine is an ER trauma surgeon by day and a firearms instructor when he can be. He told me one time to never argue with anyone on the internet regarding training bacause most people just don't get it. I fully understand now what he means and am sorry I got into it with you. I don't believe you will ever get training. I believe you are the type of person who thinks that if stuff goes south for you that you will rise to the occasion whereas in actuality, you will default to your level of training.

My post was informational. As a NRA certified instructor and having taken additional instructor training for as dgg9 says is "real world" training, I made light of another NRA instructed class. Another ex - LEO makes fun of LEO that take his classes but does so to lighten up the class and in such a manner as to not demean the recipient of his barbs.

NRA not using the term weapon is still in my OPINION politically correct jargon or lack thereof for possible legal fallout ( go back to the word OPINION).
Go also to dgg9's post. He knows of which he speaks and the trainers he references are some of the best in the business.

I'm done now. I will not respond to another of your posts in this thread unless you ask anything specifically regarding training.

I wonder if you noticed that I used my real name so as not to hide behind the keyboard. I believe we will meet as once my eye injury heals, I will once again go to GPGC to shoot the game of IDPA and home defense handgun.
Perhaps we can continue our discussion together and not bore the whole board.

Later,

Hans

[Frenchy]

Frenchy,

I wonder if you noticed that I used my real name so as not to hide behind the keyboard. I believe we will meet as once my eye injury heals, I will once again go to GPGC to shoot the game of IDPA and home defense handgun.
Perhaps we can continue our discussion together and not bore the whole board.

Later,

Hans

I actually knew your full name as you did shoot the IDPA and I have the scores here. The reason I dont use Bob is because there are so many Bob's at the club, its confusing, Bib Is also Bob, Little Bob, Bob Morris, and so many others there I met, I was begining to wonder if it was the BobGPGC I was going to use Bobby, but I was told there where some of those also. When some one shouts out Bob in the club Its funny to see as we all go "Yeah!"

The wife calls me Robert but in a french way, "Row bear" Hence my e-mail dartbearpa@ I used to play darts regularly when we met, and i live in PA. now, As most people would not recognise my name as Bob, I use Frenchy, being french et all. (kweeebeck french) Full name for legal purpose is Robert Bernier.

We could probably be friends, I am fairly easy to get along with most days Once people understand my background and why i appreciate being in the USA, they see things a slight way different.
You would have to understand Quebec politics to understand what words can change the way I do. You would also have to know what hassles my ex made me go through to understand that I have been in court over the issue of my affairs with "Guns" and other things. You are 200% correct, you dont say anything after an event unless a good lawyer tells you to.

But enough of this, Those who know me well (and there are not many), Know I have been there walked out clean.

Maybe some day we can talk F2F about this and you will understand how tight a string words can place in your life.


Later Robert B AKA Frenchy

[dgg9]

27hand,

Btw, your .sig line is 100% in line with my own training philosophy.

[27hand]

dgg9,

That sig line is borrowed with permission from the Fire Institute.

Let me ramble a bit again.

I thought that sig line says exactly what training is about. Having taken basic pistol classes quite a few times but not for the last year or two, I feel I have to take another to rid myself of any bad habits I may have picked up. Hopefully the eye stitches can come out in the next month or so and the cornea scar is just off centerline so with corrective glasses ,I will be able to see the front sight.

Training and shooting in general are a diminishing skill which can deteriorate with disuse. Subtle changes in your grip, stance,presentation,trigger press,etc-etc will affect how you shoot. That's one of the reasons in my original post, I said range time should be positive and involve your trained skills. Shooting with a friend with similar interests can help as you can critique each other and maintain your skill level.

I don't do that well in IDPA (midstream sharpshooter) but I like to do it cold with my carry gun. I thought about a dedicated IDPA pistol like a Glock 17 or 21, both of which I shoot better than my carry 23 and 32, but try to look at it and use it as an additional training tool. I have shot a nonsanctioned type of IDPA shoot where most participants were LEO. The range was hot and I felt perfectly comfortable with everyone having loaded guns on their hips.
I understand completely why this is not acceptable in regular IDPA.

I was going to take a Randy Cain Practicle Rifle class later this year and have been cleared by the doc to do so but with limited vision in my dominant eye, I think I would struggle at best. I bought a Spanish Mauser FR-8 and 1200 rounds of 308 and shot it just before GPCG stopped operating.

The Fire Institute offers a wide variety of courses like the practical rifle class or if you have a long range gun, their precision rifle class. They occasionally have a revolver only class for the guys whose guns have BRT's (big round things). Their night/low-light course is excellent even though the regular pistol and carbine classes usually have one night shoot.

Tony instructs a Utah CCW class which, with a Pa License to carry firearms, allows you to carry concealed in 32 states.

They also instruct a one day handgun familiarization class. Although not an NRA class , the instructors are NRA certified and this is an excellent course if you have a spouse or friend somewhat unfamiliar with guns and would like to learn. Some people ,having taken this class, went on to take a 3 day class and relly enjoyed the experience.

Check out their website. We have had participants from New York, Virginia,Maryland and Ohio. along with in state people from Erie, just north of Philly, and Southwestern Pa.

Ramble mode off,

later.

Hans

[27hand]

Robert (Frenchy),

Hopefully, GPGC will reopen soon and I would like to meet and shoot with you.

Perhaps when it reopens, we can organize a PFOA shoot similar to the GlockTalk shoot we had there two years ago. I ruined 10 target plates shooting Mike Shovel's S&W500 and had to have our fab shop remake them.

Bob and Bob are good guys(Morris and Bib) and I commend them on their efforts to set up their respective shoots. I know Little Bob doesn't run the combat shoot anymore but havn't met the "new" guy that took his place.

I haven't shot a pistol since the first GPGC IDPA match and am chomping at the bit to do so. Maybe I'll visit Coraopolis this weekend and point shoot a hundred rounds or so.

Later,

Hans

[9mmMike]

Count me in.

Me as well.

[richreitz]

As I remember from Army basic training, our Drill Sergeant told us that a rifle, bayonet, knife, grenade, etc. is only a tool in a soldier's hands. YOU are the WEAPON!