Allegheny County SWAT not happy campers

[ErSwnn]

I see no reason LE shouldn't have the same weapons many of us feel we need. Hell yes I want an AR! Why? Besides the fun factor because if the SHTF I want my defensive posture as complete as possible. Seems fair enough that the cops would feel the same...and are much more likely to need it. But I can see the point of settling for a Mini-14 given taxpayer funding. Either option, I'm fine with my taxes paying for what they need and agree with Steve. Arm them well. I'd like to see more training too. I used to work for a local PD (civilian) and went shooting with them. With a couple of exceptions I was the better shot. I'm pretty sure that if most of us had a job where we actually had to look for trouble we'd want top of the line weapontry and training.

[TonyF]

The main arguments I see repeated throughout this thread as well as this board in general against arming patrol officers and SWAT with rifles, body armor and other HSLD accoutrements is the threat to citizens with respect to no-knock warrants being served at the wrong address and resultant death and injury to innocent citizens and the overall threat to civil liberties from perceived JBT tactics and "mission creep".

The reality is that they have nothing to do with each other. The no-knock screw ups and overstepping of boundaries that do occur are NOT THE RESULT of the weapons and related gear, they are the result of ill-conceived planning and the moronic dip sticks who are put in charge of these kinds of operations.

Look at it from the OP's original post. The county SWAT team is upset that SHACOG is going to form a CIRT.

Riddle me this .......... who in that unit is qualified to plan and execute SWAT type operations?

Are they going to hire someone with experience or [sarcasm] appoint someone's uncle's, brother-in-law's, cousin who has been a police officer with an "extensive career" spanning an entire 27 months? [/sarcasm]

But I wonder if those opposed to arming the police in such fashion would feel differently if they had a brother, father or son working in LE?

I would really like to know from those opposed, what do you actually know about police work and what the basis of your position is other than drinking the anti-government / anti-LE kool-aid that often runs rampant on these gun forums. IOW, I want you to provide us with some background as to what makes you think you're qualified to even engage in discussion of the issue. And I don't want to hear any B.S. about "this is a discussion forum blah, blah, blah". Either put up something that inspires confidence or STFU.

My 2 cents. SWAT certainly does need the equipment they use and the beat cops do need AR15's in their patrol cars. What we need to do is weed out the political hacks in LE admin and replace them with officers who have BTDT. The guy who has had to kick down doors is the guy you want in charge because through his experience, he will be the last one to want his officers kicking in doors.

In the recent shooting of SA Hicks by Mrs. Korbe, if it was an ill-conceived and ill-planned raid, I hope that fact is disclosed in her trial and I hope the moron responsible has to account for it in some tangible way but for the record, I don't believe for a minute she didn't know it was LE.

However ......... (ETA) in many of these kinds of cases where things went badly, someone planned the operation, someone convinced a judge / D.A. to issue an arrest warrant, someone decided that a dynamic or forced entry was required, or someone screwed up the intel, etc., etc., etc.

You "cop bashers" are attacking the wrong problem ..... it's not the hardware, it's that "someone".

[pirateron]

I would prefer my tax money going to furnish the police dept with whatever they need instead of having to buy my own handguns, buying my own patrol rifle, etc.

I agree with this, the Department should outfit its officers


Do yourself a favor and google the Rock Hill SC bank robbery and tell me that officer should not of had a EBR.

Not sure why it is a favor to myself, but, I did. I stand by my assertion that the officer, while valiant, and heroic, for sure, doesn't need an EBR. Especially if he is in a crowded area, from what I read, the idiot that robbed the bank hit two (2) civilian cars with rounds, The last thing needed is an automatic rifle shootout in a populated area.


Or how about the N. Hollywood bank robbery??? No evil black rifles there and look what happened.

LA SWAT should have been better equipped. (There are certain "teams" {swat, stars, whatever} that should have the heavy artillery and be trained for those situations that call for it.) Yeah that was crazy, but, it has happened, what once in the last 20 years or more? I can't agree to arming all LEO's on the premise that they might run into someone who "out guns" them.

So, in your opinion patrol officers should not be allowed to have EBR's??? Please tell my why. Should they have shotguns??? Should they have a whistle??

Every patrol vehicle should have an AR rifle inside.

Correct, "patrol officers" should not have EBR's. Shotguns, yes, whistles, if it makes em feel better. How often have you, or any LEO's that you know, been in a situation where they needed to pull their "handgun"? Not many I'd guess. How many have been in a situation where they were out gunned? Sure, it could happen, but, a meteor might fall on your head too, you want to start wearing a hardhat?

[ErSwnn]

Sorry Ron but I'm going to disagree with you one this one. I doubt you meant it to sound like what the antis say to us....but it did. We arm ourselves for self defense in case something happens that warrants the need. The antis counter this with words very similar to yours. A meteor could fall but..... We all want to own such weapons primarily for protection in the event of circumstances beyond the control of LE, military, or society. Mainstream thinking believes this to be impossible...we disagree. Cops on the otherhand are mandated to respond to and seek out the malfunctioning segments of the population and exert lawful control of the situation. This sometimes requires superior firepower. The same exact reason many of us exercise our right to be armed. To combat unlawful actions against us. LE is just trying to do the same, protect and serve.

It's true, LE rarely has to clear leather but it's a sure bet they do it more frequently than the general population. Let me ask you this...if you had to patrol an area in which you are certain to encounter bad guys what equipment would you like to have?

I counter your point with respect and a willingness to hear what you think in this. I also understand some points made as to police becoming too similar to military and see the reason for concern. I'm not sold on the idea but believe it's something to keep an eye on, it is a concern that could easily slip into reality under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

[MichaelJ]

What the hell does OSHA know about what is needed for police work????? Their fat asses sit behind a desk and say you don't need that for your job??? Get out from behind your desk then tell me what I need for my job.

Exactly my point. Third party trying to decide what is best for the employee without actually knowing what the employee faces on their job. But they are the "authority".

[pirateron]

Sorry Ron but I'm going to disagree with you one this one. I doubt you meant it to sound like what the antis say to us....but it did. We arm ourselves for self defense in case something happens that warrants the need. The antis counter this with words very similar to yours. A meteor could fall but..... We all want to own such weapons primarily for protection in the event of circumstances beyond the control of LE, military, or society. Mainstream thinking believes this to be impossible...we disagree. Cops on the otherhand are mandated to respond to and seek out the malfunctioning segments of the population and exert lawful control of the situation. This sometimes requires superior firepower. The same exact reason many of us exercise our right to be armed. To combat unlawful actions against us. LE is just trying to do the same, protect and serve.

It's true, LE rarely has to clear leather but it's a sure bet they do it more frequently than the general population. Let me ask you this...if you had to patrol an area in which you are certain to encounter bad guys what equipment would you like to have?

I counter your point with respect and a willingness to hear what you think in this. I also understand some points made as to police becoming too similar to military and see the reason for concern. I'm not sold on the idea but believe it's something to keep an eye on, it is a concern that could easily slip into reality under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

Some excellent points.

I carry my handgun "in case" something were to happen. When I first started carrying, I was living in South Carolina and there was alot of people being robbed in the Wal-mart parking lots. Folks just loading their groceries and a crack-head (alot of those in the sticks) would come up to them with a knife or a gun and rob em and take their goods. They would also drive through the parking lots and reach out the window and grad womans purses, causing major injuries along with the anguish of being robbed. I decided then that I nor my family would become a statistic. I didn't start carrying an AR-15. I have an SKS that I got because it is a fun gun to shoot, and if the Zombies come, I'll have more firepower. Is it possible that i, a LEO or any other member of this forum, could be assulted with an EBR, or a grenade launcher? Yes it is possible, but I don't think too many folks carry their AR's to Wally world with them. There are rare, very rare instances where LE need to pull their heat, even rarer (?? is that even a word??) times when they need the riot gun in the squad car. Almost never do they need an EBR in the vehicle. My point is that, IF that need ever arises, the bad guy would be pumpin out rounds like crazy, the po-po would be doing the same, the risk to the innocent bystander increases exponentially. I don't think that risk is worth having LE have taxpayers buy them EBR's to go to the range and have a good time with to be proficient enough with them to use them in the heat of battle. That's my thoughts.

As far as your question "if you had to patrol an area in which you are certain to encounter bad guys what equipment would you like to have?"--- That's hard for me to answer. I am not in that position, nor would I ever want to be. I do respect the LEO that patrols such areas and I don't envy their position. But, that's a profession they chose, knowing the risks involved. They didn't sign up saying, I'll only patrol zone 5 in an armoured car with a belt fed 60 and air support. Again, ALL protective equipment we can get them, we should. But if they're going into bangerland rollin up on a drughouse by themselves, they need more training, 'cause that ain't their place. That's where the special unit comes in.

[Steve in PA]

Correct, "patrol officers" should not have EBR's. Shotguns, yes, whistles, if it makes em feel better. How often have you, or any LEO's that you know, been in a situation where they needed to pull their "handgun"? Not many I'd guess. How many have been in a situation where they were out gunned? Sure, it could happen, but, a meteor might fall on your head too, you want to start wearing a hardhat?

Your mixing EBR's (evil black rifles) with full-auto EBR's.

99.9% of the people who speak of EBR's are refering to semi-auto rifles, not the full-auto variety.

I never once said a patrol officer needs a full-auto rifle, a semi-auto works just fine.

For the high speed, low drag guys......I would let those guys decide what is needed. Maybe a 3-round burst would be the prefered rifle. I'm not a high speed low drag guy so I won't profess to know what they need or why they need it.

And for your information, I've had to pull my handgun more times than you think. We have also had to deploy our EBR on a few calls, but no shots were fired. I don't have to be in danger of being out gunned to want or need to have an EBR at my disposal.

I have a better chance of being faced with an armed, violent person than I do getting hit by a meteor. So no.....I won't be wearing a hard hat.

[Archiver]

SWAT.... remember when it was called what it REALLY is? Years ago it was Special Weapons ASSAULT Team. But wait Assault is illegal!
Lets just change the name to hide what it really is!