Allegheny County SWAT not happy campers

[Mosinshooter762]

Yea, it looks like someone was spending time on AR15COM.

I can't speak for all the "special" teams in PA but I can tell you that the York County team trains hard, works hard, and holds themselves to the highest expectations.
A group of officers can not just get together and form a SWAT team. They have to meet training and certification requirements for the state before they are sanctioned.
Some teams are better than others, those teams put more time into training, pure and simple.

"It's trendy to carry "military gear", and look like a badass...

Plus it gives a false sense of security to "the people".

Look for more and more of these "units" to pop up all over the place. "

Sorry but the beginning part of this quote is just bullshit.
Most of these guys volunteer to put their lives on the line, many were prior military so the whole "military gear" and look badass thing is shit. Many of the guys I know spent time in the sandbox and other places while most of us watched the events of the last 10 years or so from our sofas. Do you have any idea what it's like to spend 12-14 hours laying in a drainage ditch not eating, drinking or getting any rest because there is no one to relieve you? The gear these officers wear is to protect their lives, not look badass. From the camo fatigues to the body armor and helmets, to the gas masks and SCBA tanks, the gear they wear helps these guys get home to their families.
And where does the false sense of security idea come from? I'd bet that most of the residents in York County don't even know we have a SWAT team, let alone have "secure feelings" because it exists. They are in the newspapers and on TV once or twice a year, when something really bad goes down and the officers end up using lethal force. Other than that, no one ever hears about the teams. You don't hear about the other 30-50 call-outs they have each year. The ones where they diffuse the situation, the negotiation team talks the subject into giving up and not a shot was fired.

I don't know if the problem is fear or jealousy but it's really getting ridiculous with the amount of cop/SWAT bashing that's been going on, not only here but on the other two big boards. They are not going to come crashing through your door accidentally, they aren't going to show up and shoot your dog, and they are not out to take away your guns. Pro-gun people bitch and complain when the antis dig out and use the one time a CCW'er uses a gun illegally, but turn around and to the same thing to the people in blue.

The difference between being critical of police tactics, such as SWAT teams, and the public carrying firearms is great. Police are public servants, and paid via the public treasury. Whereas, when an individual carries a firearm, he is not a public servant, and thus is only bound by the rights of others. I think it is not only a citizens right, but a duty to be critical of potentially dangerous police tactics that may harm the dignity, security, and lives of themselves, or their fellow countrymen. I think you would not hesitate to be critical of a business, such as restaurant, that served you a crappy piece of beef, or a waitress that acted real rude. Likewise, why should "We the People" hold back when the questions about the honor, integrity, service and tactics are raised about police? There are many examples of the police version of the bad piece of meat being served in the United States. Big examples of such are Waco, Atlanta (where a grandmother was killed defending herself and home), Ruby Ridge (U.S. Marshals and FBI tactics are at issue in this one), just recently a Maryland Mayors home, and countless other events. Bpvet kindly posted a link to the CATO institutes botched raid map. http://www.cato.org/raidmap/#

[turkeyduster]

I could not agree more!!! I too am tired of the cop bashing!! If this forum is all about freedom and rights, why all the negativity about those who are trying to protect them?? Cops are the good guys, remember? There will be some bad ones in ANY profession but the good far outweigh the bad in local law enforcement. I am honored to have spent a career in LE and have served with some courageous men and women with more integrity than any of the "bashers" in this forum. I'm also tired of anyone who speaks against "Open Carry", on this Forum, as being viewed as a communist!! I have YET to hear a logical rationale why as to why it's necessary. Yes, it is legal, but why the need to openly carry? Won't a concealed weapon be just as deadly? It's the NEGATIVE attention which hurts all gun owners. I'm sure I will be once again "counselled" regarding this post. But hey, we are all entitled to freedom of speech, right ?

[pirateron]

I could not agree more!!! I too am tired of the cop bashing!! If this forum is all about freedom and rights, why all the negativity about those who are trying to protect them?? Cops are the good guys, remember? There will be some bad ones in ANY profession but the good far outweigh the bad in local law enforcement. I am honored to have spent a career in LE and have served with some courageous men and women with more integrity than any of the "bashers" in this forum. I'm also tired of anyone who speaks against "Open Carry", on this Forum, as being viewed as a communist!! I have YET to hear a logical rationale why as to why it's necessary. Yes, it is legal, but why the need to openly carry? Won't a concealed weapon be just as deadly? It's the NEGATIVE attention which hurts all gun owners. I'm sure I will be once again "counselled" regarding this post. But hey, we are all entitled to freedom of speech, right ?

Speak all you want.. Just because you say the sky is brown, don't make it so.
How dare you judge the integrity of ANYONE on this site? Who are you to condemn people for holding a certain view against the folks that crash in doors in the middle of the night, oh, wait, wrong country, American Law Enforcement officers would never do anything ethically questionable. And just by your comment about "open Carry" and being "counselled again" one might think you are trolling this site, apparently you have no respect for the admistrators (as they would be the ones "counselling") or the OP since "open carry" has NOTHING to do with this thread. Perhaps tamponsrus.com would be a better site for you to frequent.

[AxiTech]

I'm also tired of anyone who speaks against "Open Carry", on this Forum, as being viewed as a communist!! I have YET to hear a logical rationale why as to why it's necessary. Yes, it is legal, but why the need to openly carry?
__________________________________________________ _______________
I find that when someone asks this question a good way to find the answer is to substitute a different word ,and see how the equation shakes out.
Yes, it is legal to read a Bible, but why do you need to?
Yes, it is legal to have black folks living in this township, but why the need to?
Yes, it is legal to read the paper, but why the need to?

My point is: You use too many words! That sentence can be shortened to four words, "Yes, it is legal". There, I hope that helps.

Next, as to gung-ho, over the top cops. Yes, there are several good cops in each and every unit. There are also a fair share of rookies, alcoholics, rights abusing jerkoffs too. I spent a few years in Law Enforcement, military and civilian. I can tell you this, military law enforcement is far more professional than the "wannabees" you see running around in cammies every time some couple gets a little loud in a trailer park. I used to tell the new guys, "There is no honor in writing a law-abiding citizen, who just pulled a 'California stop' because they were in a hurry. Sure, go ahead and stop them, write them up if you need to. But, DO NOT swagger about, acting all suave and debonair, like some badass tv cop, while doing it. There is no honor in it".
Cops are Public Servants, and the Chief who reminds his officers of this, at every opportunity, is doing a great service to his community. The Chief who doesn't, well, he deserves to lose his badge along with the thugs he is creating.

[MartinBrody]

Turkeyduster said...

If this forum is all about freedom and rights, why all the negativity about those who are trying to protect them??

I mean this in all honesty and with no disrespect, I never think of police as being the ones who protect our rights.

As for negativity toward law enforcement I think it is a love/hate relationship. In general I think gun people are pro law enforcement, probably more so than the general public. The animosity comes from numerous places, I feel one big reason is that antis often have the belief that only police should have guns. Big city police chiefs often have anti gun political views, check out our own Chief Ramsey of PPD. All this being the case, us little guys often feel the police in the end will not protect our second amendment rights, furthermore they will retain theirs through their occupation. There is some truth to this, see DC during the handgun ban, Chicago and NYC to come extent.

[bige64]

I think I will stick with defending myself...

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/ka...rotection.html

[jpavoncello]

This thread has nothing to do with Open Carry or protecting yourself. It has to do with a certain segment of our population that believes that all law enforcement is corrupt, and that they are nothing more than bullies in a uniform. I'd bet that most cop bashers are folks that at one time had a run-in or two with the law and it didn't go your way.

Not supporting local law enforcement just because of a few bad apples is no different than the anti's blaming all gun owners for the actions of a few criminals. Will police be there to protect you all the time? NO. But if some shit-bag goes into the local high school where my children are, and opens fire with an SKS, I'll be thankful that we have a team like the York County QRT to end the situation.

Cop bashers can blab all they want about protecting themselves and continue to exercise their 2A rights by open carrying, but in the end, when the bullets are flying, most will turn tail and run. I've read it many times on this board that individuals here would head for the nearest exit when the shooting starts at the mall because it's not their "responsibility" to get involved unless they are directly engaged.

You all are not helping our 2A cause at all by continually bashing LE. Many of them, especially in the big cities, see us as morons that think it should still be the wild wild west. The best thing that pro-gun people could do to help our cause is to support local LEO and prove that we are sincere about protecting everyone's rights, not just our own. I've spent a lot of time over the past three years volunteering to shoot training photos, play aggressor, help out at the shooting range, pretty much anything I can to help the local team out. In doing so I've developed a great relationship with almost every single member of the team, along with several of the local police chiefs. I've brought up the subject of open carry several times, talked over beers about gun control and politics, and in my belief, have definitely made a difference in how these officers look at gun-toting civilians like myself.

By the way, the SWAT teams involved with Ruby Ridge and Waco were Federal teams (FBI), local teams were on scene at both, but it was the feds that did the shooting.

[Philadelphia]

I think this thread is supposed to be about the folly of politically driven turf battles so common to gov't. Did I walk in the wrong door?

I engage in it a little myself. I want my branch and unit to get the high profile missions and sometimes have to bite my tongue in a variety of circumstances. The high road is to focus on cooperation for the good of the whole placing egos firmly in check. Sounds nice but people are people and that can be really hard for some to do. Sometimes if you hang back too much the assholes of the world will grind you down. It's always a balancing act.

The real question is what is the most effective and efficient approach to a "critical incident." I propose the hypothesis or straw man if you will that, for the most part, police ain't the be all, end all. Police response does seem to cause the active shooter to stop mowing down innocents and kill him or herself, but I wonder if we can do better. I'm sure greater minds are working on the issue. Maybe the real answer is to help the public understand that in a free society there is some danger that the police can't possibly prevent and that's a cost that must be borne or we would otherwise be forced to live in a very safe police state.

Where I do take issue in terms of "turf" is having civilian agencies so directly involved in the mix where in some functions civilians do not belong. As an example, fed DHS and FEMA have grown so far out of their depth and forcing round civilian pegs into square holes it boggles my mind. It's all a big, wasteful turf battle and in that case an example of the feds growing their own power and inflence in derrogation of state power/responsibility, with the states willingly and eagerly watching it happen because they don't want the cost or responsibility of dealing with those types of issues. In the end, the result is often a total CF when bad things actually do happen.

[Trooper]

I could not agree more!!! I too am tired of the cop bashing!! If this forum is all about freedom and rights, why all the negativity about those who are trying to protect them?? Cops are the good guys, remember? There will be some bad ones in ANY profession but the good far outweigh the bad in local law enforcement. I am honored to have spent a career in LE and have served with some courageous men and women with more integrity than any of the "bashers" in this forum. I'm also tired of anyone who speaks against "Open Carry", on this Forum, as being viewed as a communist!! I have YET to hear a logical rationale why as to why it's necessary. Yes, it is legal, but why the need to openly carry? Won't a concealed weapon be just as deadly? It's the NEGATIVE attention which hurts all gun owners. I'm sure I will be once again "counselled" regarding this post. But hey, we are all entitled to freedom of speech, right ?

Why? Because all too often, when the rubber meets the road, the police have proven to be either ignorant of, or willing to ignore the law. Katrina is a prime example, as are the many instances of cops being completely in the dark about firearms laws in their jurisdictions.

[jpavoncello]

"Why? Because all too often, when the rubber meets the road, the police have proven to be either ignorant of, or willing to ignore the law. Katrina is a prime example, as are the many instances of cops being completely in the dark about firearms laws in their jurisdictions."


Katrina was a fuck-up on every level from the people who didn't heed the warnings to leave to FEMA's response. I wasn't in New Orleans but I can tell you that from what I saw in Biloxi, there wasn't any problem with LE taking private civilian firearms. AGAIN... it's the same old story, using the crimes of a few to bash the entire group.
On a side note, I thought it was cool to see National Guard troops walking around walmart with M4's. You conspiracy theory types might not agree but it was the only time I felt truly safe while I was there.