The best way to survive a gunfight

**Montell C. Williams** · March 25th, 2007, 09:21 AM

Is to not get into one, stay out of rough areas and places with bad reputations if you can. If you do get into one take cover first if you can then shoot, if gought in the open shoot fast as you can, wth some degree of accuracy, for the first shot, that will usually disrupt your oponents aim, then try for a little more accuracy.
Don't think you are Wyatt Earp, no matter how good you are you could have bad luck or the other guy might get lucky. Remember to avoid trouble, take cover, if cought in the open shoot fast then try to aim if time allows.
Thank God the odds of having to shoot are very slim if you try to avoid bad areas.

**27hand** · March 25th, 2007, 10:04 AM

"Don't do stupid things"

Don't go to stupid places"

Don't associate with stupid people"

John Farnam 2002

I disagree with what you have posted for the most part.
Staying out of bad areas? What if you HAVE to go to bad areas.
This could happen at your local mall,downtown,your front yard etc,etc.

Has some trainer taught you this method?

I personally have not been trained to "spray and pray". I have been taught "front sight ,press"

You have no clue as to how an adversary will react (if at all) when you "shoot fast to disrupt your opponents aim" and keep shooting fast "with SOME degree of accuracy.

I think you should move when presenting your weapon and get good hit(s) quickly.
Is he going to stand there and exchange shots with you?
Are you going to blast away while running for cover?
Can you make hits while you and he are moving?

It's going to happen when you least expect it.
It'll be over in seconds.
You will have NO time to prepare for it(or you wouldn't be there)
If you don't know what to do, you will not do it.

If it's a face to face encounter, you probably will not even have time to draw your gun. Can you react to this situation?

I gotta go. Can't wait to see how this thread shakes.

Later, 27hand

**JustinM** · March 25th, 2007, 10:54 AM

The benchmark for ANY defensive shooting should be "fist sized groups as fast as you can shoot them".

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend.

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

8. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

9. Always cheat always win. The only unfair fight is the one you loose.

10. Have a plan.

11. Have a back-up plan because the first one won’t work.

12. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

13. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

14. Don’t drop your guard.

15. Always Tac load and threat scan 360 degrees.

16. Hands kill, watch them. (In God we trust. Everyone else gets cuffed behind the back.)

17. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

18. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

19. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

20. Be courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one.

21. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance,
deterrence, and de-escalation.

**1FingrCHan** · March 25th, 2007, 10:59 AM

While Mr. Williams's opinion make some senses. Going by the historical gunfights in battle, for example, the Marines in Nam are seen firing their M-16 above their heads from the trench. They were trying to put the enemy at the disadvantage by firing as much ammo as they can so the enemy would seek cover and not fire back. That is one way to survive a gunfight.

Well here on the bad street, in the mall, in the shopping plaza. The crazed young punk that shot up the people at a mall in Utah gave no warning. The element of surprise trumps all, I think. If people have CCW, they can fight back. Mentally, these young punks are weak-minded individuals and once they see other people pointing gun back at them, they ain't all that.

So, I think it's all depend on circumstances. hard to say one way or the other.

1FingrCHan

**1FingrCHan** · March 25th, 2007, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by jmateer

The benchmark for ANY defensive shooting should be "fist sized groups as fast as you can shoot them".

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend.

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

8. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

9. Always cheat always win. The only unfair fight is the one you loose.

10. Have a plan.

11. Have a back-up plan because the first one won’t work.

12. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

13. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

14. Don’t drop your guard.

15. Always Tac load and threat scan 360 degrees.

16. Hands kill, watch them. (In God we trust. Everyone else gets cuffed behind the back.)

17. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

18. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

19. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

20. Be courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one.

21. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance,
deterrence, and de-escalation.

Good post, Jmateer. Also, keep an open minded too. Not all situations go "by-the-book". But the common denomination is to come out ALIVE. Do whatever, and trust your instinct. If you smell Sh*t, then there must be a pile of it around. LOL

1FingrCHan

**MarcS** · March 25th, 2007, 11:34 AM

training is for when your luck runs out.

And because everyone mentioned "shit going wrong" but gave no solution to "shit going wrong" other than dying, i'll be the first to say your backup plan should include first aid training and a good blow out kit.

**rwilson452** · March 25th, 2007, 12:22 PM

The absolutly positively best way is to not be there when the fight starts. IAW if it looks like things are not right, bug out, leave, be elsewhere.

A corallary to this is it always happens when you least expect it.

It has been my observation that most excersizes in IDPA and IPSC have you moving forward toward the problem. the exact opposite of what you should be doing. I know it's a safely thing at these drills. IF you can find a place to train that you can do drills backing out of trouble, do it. even if is a dry fire drill. An axium is you fight the way you train. If you train to go toward your foe it's likely that is what you will do when the the little brown torpedos hit the rotating machinery.

Wasn't the Late Great Jeff Cooper said that a pistol is something you use to fight your way to your long gun?

every time I step out my door is a training session. My radar is always on scan looking for problems. At the first sign of trouble I'm looking for escape routes. IF my alert status goes from yellow to orange. I'm taking that escape route. There is nothing out there worth getting into a gun fight over if it can be avoided. Pride goeth before a fall. Some over excited person want's my parking space? ok sir, it's yours let me back out. It's not worth spending the next ten years in court, if you live.

When all else fails be trained and prepared to shoot the other person. Now Are you really prepared in your own mind to take another person's life? really for sure? If your not, don't carry. He who hasitates is lost.

No how much you practice and train in that moment of truth it will not be something that exactly matches your training and it will come as a complete suprise. your only hope is that you have practice something close enough that you can get past the problem. IDPA and IPSC etc will teach you how to shoot better under different conditions. It is not good tactical training. All the tactical training courses I know of are at best modified LEO training and work the more aggressive style. We really need more courses on how to disengage from a gun fight.

**MarcS** · March 25th, 2007, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by rwilson452

It has been my observation that most excersizes in IDPA and IPSC have you moving forward toward the problem. the exact opposite of what you should be doing. I know it's a safely thing at these drills. IF you can find a place to train that you can do drills backing out of trouble, do it. even if is a dry fire drill. An axium is you fight the way you train. If you train to go toward your foe it's likely that is what you will do when the the little brown torpedos hit the rotating machinery.

There is occasion where forward drive is necessary. In many situations, there is no opportunity to retreat from the threat and aggressive forward drive coupled with the willingness to use extreme violence can play havoc with the OODA loop and demoralize the enemy. The last thing a violent predator expects is for you to fight back. You can't totally dismiss aggressive action as irrelevant to civilian training.

No how much you practice and train in that moment of truth it will not be something that exactly matches your training and it will come as a complete suprise. your only hope is that you have practice something close enough that you can get past the problem. IDPA and IPSC etc will teach you how to shoot better under different conditions. It is not good tactical training. All the tactical training courses I know of are at best modified LEO training and work the more aggressive style. We really need more courses on how to disengage from a gun fight.

It exists, it's called force on force.

**Montell C. Williams** · March 25th, 2007, 01:17 PM

I have 25 years on the Camden,N.J. PD most of it in Patrol Division and 2 years om D.C. Metropolitan Police before I retired and moved from NJ. I have been on well over 100 homicides and involved in 3 shooting incidents. During my 25 years on Camden PD I had the highest fiearms average for 18 of those years. My advise is sound and anyone who thinks luck doesn't count don't know what he is talking about.
A lot of the replies to my post are from people who have no experiance and may have been trained by target shooters, In a real gunfight a guy who shoots 100% on the range will be lucky to shoot well enough to qualify at all if it were a test. And distracting your opponent works unless he is a psycho.
You may have a problem at a suburban mall or nice neighborhood but most shootings occour in bad locations at night in warm weather. Read my post again and heed my advice, take cover first if you can and stay out of bad neighborhoods if you can.

**rwilson452** · March 25th, 2007, 02:25 PM

I don't dismiss it. as the old saying goes, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do." I don't dismiss any action you may need to take. My point is of you don't practice movement in every direction it is quite likely you will not use any direction not practiced. Some courses excepted, the playing field tends to only have movement in the horizontal plane. we live in a 3 dimensional world. It wasn't until recent times that our military started doing 3D "urban combat training".

I'm not saying such training doesn't exsist, I'm saying it's rare and not often made available to the average person. Everone needs to think about it. Those the offer training to us poor civilians need to consider it in their courses at all levels.

Originally Posted by MarcS

There is occasion where forward drive is necessary. In many situations, there is no opportunity to retreat from the threat and aggressive forward drive coupled with the willingness to use extreme violence can play havoc with the OODA loop and demoralize the enemy. The last thing a violent predator expects is for you to fight back. You can't totally dismiss aggressive action as irrelevant to civilian training.

It exists, it's called force on force.