Can a private rifle range club video record its members without their knowledge?

[Marines55]

Yeah, I get that. Not sure why it matters.

The property owner doesn't lose the right to film on its property simply because it's a private club and not open to the public.

Being IN PUBLIC in a private club isn't any different from being IN PUBLIC on private property with respect to having an expectation of privacy.

I'll restate my example above:

Consider the concept of a restroom open to all members of a private club, on private property. Say, at Stay The Fuck Out Gun Club. If you are sitting on the toilet in that restroom, you are not IN PUBLIC, and you have a right to expect privacy. The club may put a camera facing the door to the restroom and film people going in and out, but it can't install toilet cams.

You don't have an expectation of privacy in the areas of the private gun club where all of the other members can see what you're doing in the normal course of their activities, even if the GENERAL PUBLIC doesn't have access to it.

You can be IN PUBLIC, even on PRIVATE LAND that is not open to the general public. The easiest example is your front yard. If you're standing in your front yard, you have zero (reasonable) expectation of privacy. If you don't want people filming you, then go inside your house, where you DO have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

I appreciate your opinion. But if a someone is filming you without your consent or knowledge while on private property not open to the public without giving notice and no one knows where that footage is stored, who has access to it, and when/where it is distributed then yes I think it would fall under legal issues. Not sure where you get your information from but it sounds as though you are confused and very argumentative. I*m looking for facts here and while I do appreciate your input I think you have missed the point of camouflaged cameras, no written notice, no warning, and unwanted filming of minors.

[free]

I appreciate your opinion. But if a someone is filming you without your consent or knowledge while on private property not open to the public without giving notice and no one knows where that footage is stored, who has access to it, and when/where it is distributed then yes I think it would fall under legal issues.

Well....I dunno what to tell you man. Hire a lawyer, make your case.

Not sure where you get your information from but it sounds as though you are confused and very argumentative.

I hear that a lot...even when I'm trying to help (:

I*m looking for facts here and while I do appreciate your input I think you have missed the point of camouflaged cameras, no written notice, no warning, and unwanted filming of minors.

Just to be clear....assume you live across the street from me. Assume also that I do the following:

1). I put a camera on top of my house.
2). I point it at your house.
3). I install it in such a way that you don't know it's there.
4). I don't tell you about it.
5). I capture footage of your clothed children playing in your yard - which is your private property, but clearly seen from the road.
6). I do whatever I want to with that footage.

I've broken no laws.

Now assume I do the following:

1). I put a camera in a tree somewhere on on my property.
2). I use my property a private gun club.
3). I install it in such a way that you don't know it's there.
4). I don't tell you about it.
5). I capture footage of your clothed children at my gun range - which is my private property, that I allow you access to
6). I do whatever I want to with that footage.

I've broken no laws.

Note well that I don't necessarily think this is how it SHOULD BE, only that it is (in my understanding) how it ACTUALLY IS. I understand your objections - I just don't think you "have a case", as it were.

[DonBiase]

I believe that one of the details on recording is the expectation that you are in a private location. Like an office, on the phone, etc. When out and about in public, that expectation is not to be...expected.

The legal question is, Do You Have a Reasonable Expectation of Privacy".
I would think So!!

[akley88]

The legal question is, Do You Have a Reasonable Expectation of Privacy".
I would think So!!

everything i have seen for just video recording says the property owner sets the rules on private property. there is no requirement to inform as far as i could find in PA for just video. audio recording would be a different issue in PA. i would raise this concern in a meeting and see who and why it was being done.

[knight0334]

In public you have no right to privacy, but this isn't public, it's private.

You have a right to privacy when there is an expectation of privacy. Your voice can be recorded in private properties if there isn't an expectation of privacy. It isn't about the type of property, it is about the expectation.

Your conversation can be recorded in a restaurant while dining, and many other private properties. It cannot be recorded when in a setting, where the talking party expects the conversation to be private. ...like if you went to some place within the establishment where nobody else is around so that you could talk with the intended person hearing to be the only person to receive the conversation.

[Marines55]

Well....I dunno what to tell you man. Hire a lawyer, make your case.

I hear that a lot...even when I'm trying to help (:

Just to be clear....assume you live across the street from me. Assume also that I do the following:

1). I put a camera on top of my house.
2). I point it at your house.
3). I install it in such a way that you don't know it's there.
4). I don't tell you about it.
5). I capture footage of your clothed children playing in your yard - which is your private property, but clearly seen from the road.
6). I do whatever I want to with that footage.

I've broken no laws.

Now assume I do the following:

1). I put a camera in a tree somewhere on on my property.
2). I use my property a private gun club.
3). I install it in such a way that you don't know it's there.
4). I don't tell you about it.
5). I capture footage of your clothed children at my gun range - which is my private property, that I allow you access to
6). I do whatever I want to with that footage.

I've broken no laws.

Note well that I don't necessarily think this is how it SHOULD BE, only that it is (in my understanding) how it ACTUALLY IS. I understand your objections - I just don't think you "have a case", as it were.

Assume that you own and run a business. You are secretly recording people without their knowledge or consent. Every single business ( private clubs are businesses) has a camera warning posted. None of their cameras are disguised. In the situation you describe with us being neighbors…you wouldn’t want to be my neighbor. And yes you are argumentative. Your tone and choice of verbiage shows you are more concerned with arguing than helping. Maybe you should look into that as well.

[akley88]

Assume that you own and run a business. You are secretly recording people without their knowledge or consent. Every single business ( private clubs are businesses) has a camera warning posted. None of their cameras are disguised. In the situation you describe with us being neighbors*you wouldn*t want to be my neighbor. And yes you are argumentative. Your tone and choice of verbiage shows you are more concerned with arguing than helping. Maybe you should look into that as well.

i couldnt find any law that requires the notification for the use of video only cameras for PA. can you cite a law that says you must inform people they are being only video recorded in PA? recording audio is a concern because of PA wiretapping law. the only thing i could find for video only recording restrictions are places like bathrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, hotel rooms, etc

[free]

Assume that you own and run a business. You are secretly recording people without their knowledge or consent. Every single business ( private clubs are businesses) has a camera warning posted. None of their cameras are disguised.

Its a courtesy.

In the situation you describe with us being neighbors*you wouldn*t want to be my neighbor.

I don't want to be anyone's neighbor.

And yes you are argumentative. Your tone and choice of verbiage shows you are more concerned with arguing than helping. Maybe you should look into that as well.

I hope you find the peace and happiness you seek.

[Marines55]

Its a courtesy.

I don't want to be anyone's neighbor.

I hope you find the peace and happiness you seek.

Ahh yes*. This says it all. Thanks again for your opinions, however argumentative they are.

[Marines55]

i couldnt find any law that requires the notification for the use of video only cameras though for PA. can you cite a law that says you must inform people they are being only video recorded in PA. recording audio is a concern because of PA wiretapping law. the only thing i could find for video only recording are places like bathrooms, changing rooms, etc.

I cannot find any laws at all concerning how a private run business can record its members. Obviously the voice recording thing is an issue as even retail establishments, schools, etc. cannot record voice on their camera systems.

That being said, this club has not raised any concerns with vandalism to its membership. It has not had any problems with people doing dumb things and for the most part everything is/was maintained well by its membership. A newer set of folks have been put on the BOD and more and more rules are being put in place for some reason. No mention to any members of trail cams being installed.

My reasonable expectation of privacy on a private range i paid to belong to is just that*reasonable. With no real reason why they would install these cameras i would have zero reason to believe such a thing was being used. The big questions are, since no members have to register their vehicles by plate number with the club, no photos were taken for club IDs, and no problems with range destruction, what are they collecting the images and perhaps voice bits for? Who decided to do it? Where is this data being sent to and stored at? Who has access to this data and why? None of this seems to strike me as a warranted measure.