P80 finished frame - Legal to sell person-to-person in PA?

[gunsrfun1]

What is the PA law regarding selling a finished (i.e., at least one hole drilled) P80 handgun frame to another PA resident directly (FTF or via the mail) without going through an FFL transfer? It's always been my understanding that once you drill even one hole in a P80 handgun frame, it is considered a firearm, not an "80%" frame. So then it cannot just be sold to another person in PA, either FTF or by mailing it to them, because all "handgun" sales in PA must go through an FFL transfer and cannot be person-to-person.

Am I wrong about this?

Reason I ask is that I have seen ads on this forum advertising finished (or partly finished) P80 frames without going through an FFL transfer. I was wondering if that is legal in PA.

PS - If you are not ABSOLUTELY sure what you are talking about and what the law is, please don't respond. Not looking for hearsay or opinions.

[knight0334]

PA regulates the transfer of "firearms", which include handguns with barrels less than 15", rifles with barrels less than 16", shotguns with barrels less than 18", and any gun less than 26" overall length.

A completed, or even 80.00000001% P80 receiver, would be a "firearm", so it would have to be transferred through a FFL. That 80% is the threshold that they sell them on. Once you do even 1 thing towards finishing it, it becomes a federally and state defined "firearm".

I'm not sure whether the ATF ruling/proxy-law now requires the FFL to place a serial number on the gun. I know there was talk of it a few months ago, but I didn't keep up with it.

[gunsrfun1]

Thanks, that is what I thought. I tried to explain that to someone (a PA resident) who said he didn't have to do an FFL transfer when selling a completed P80 frame to another PA resident. He insisted he could sell it directly to another PA resident without an FFL transfer. I told him no he could not.

As for the S/N, it's my understanding that on the FFL form, the FFL can put N/A or NSN in the block where it asks for the S/N if there is none. But I am not 100% positive about that.

[knight0334]

Thanks, that is what I thought. I tried to explain that to someone (a PA resident) who said he didn't have to do an FFL transfer when selling a completed P80 frame to another PA resident. He insisted he could sell it directly to another PA resident without an FFL transfer. I told him no, but he didn't believe me.

As for the S/N, it's my understanding that on the FFL form, the FFL can put N/A or NSN in the block where it asks for the S/N if there is none. But I am not 100% positive about that.

The ATF and FJB have been pushing a new policy that if a FFL takes in a firearm without a serial #(made after 1968), that the FFL will put a serial number on it. I don't know if that as struck down by the courts or is in effect.

[sawgunner73]

PA regulates the transfer of "firearms", which include handguns with barrels less than 15", rifles with barrels less than 16", shotguns with barrels less than 18", and any gun less than 26" overall length.

A completed, or even 80.00000001% P80 receiver, would be a "firearm", so it would have to be transferred through a FFL. That 80% is the threshold that they sell them on. Once you do even 1 thing towards finishing it, it becomes a federally and state defined "firearm".

I'm not sure whether the ATF ruling/proxy-law now requires the FFL to place a serial number on the gun. I know there was talk of it a few months ago, but I didn't keep up with it.

Per your own definition, a frame in and of itself does not meet the definition of a "firearm" under PA law.

[340M&P]

If completed, it IS a firearm by PA law definition. And you are the "manufacturer", so you must serialize it before selling it, through a FFL naturally. You also have to keep records of your serial numbers and where you sold them (FFL transfer paperwork would suffice) since you made yourself a "manufacturer". Those records are to be sent to the ATF when you cease business.

Just tell him to buy his own frame and do the work, much easier and you are off the hook.

[knight0334]

If completed, it IS a firearm by PA law definition. And you are the "manufacturer", so you must serialize it before selling it, through a FFL naturally. You also have to keep records of your serial numbers and where you sold them (FFL transfer paperwork would suffice) since you made yourself a "manufacturer". Those records are to be sent to the ATF when you cease business.

Just tell him to buy his own frame and do the work, much easier and you are off the hook.

And individual doesn't have to serialize any Title 1 gun you manufacturer other than NFA devices(Title 2). Even if the new ATF/Biden guidelines are in effect, a licensed FFL will serialize it if you sell to or trade-thru a FFL. The law only requires "licensed manufacturers" to serialize guns, then the new guidelines then attacks "ghost guns", requiring a FFL to do it if they receive one. ....still not sure if that new policy is in effect.

[knight0334]

Per your own definition, a frame in and of itself does not meet the definition of a "firearm" under PA law.

You can debate that with the PA State Police. They know, just like you and I know, that certain receivers are specifically designed for handguns. The law requires a barrel length(but not absolutely, see down below), but a bare receiver has no barrel to achieve that measurement. But a home made 1911 or P90 receiver is specifically designed to be a handgun. If you could prove through a preponderance of evidence that you were going to build a P90 into a rifle with a barrel 16" or more and an OAL of 26" or more, you would have a valid argument that it wouldn't fall under the purview of a PA defined "firearm".

Now note, the PSP could also come back with the part of the definition that includes "or any pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun with an overall length less than 26 inches" -which doesn't require a barrel length to define a "firearm".

Our job here is to steer people into lanes that absolutely guarantees them that there is NO chance they could go to jail. And by that bold above, they legally could start including ALL receivers. Sometimes it is best to not poke the bear.

[GunLawyer001]

For Sec 6105 prohibited persons, what they can't possess includes frames:

(i) Firearm.--As used in this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapons which are designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

For Sec 6111 transfers, the definition of "firearm" is narrower:

"Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

When the Legislature uses different definitions, we presume they did it on purpose. So transfers presumably don't include stripped frames under 6111.

Is it perfectly safe to follow the law as written? No. The politicians running the PSP tried to cram AR-15 rifles into the handgun requirements. You can be arrested and have your property seized, even if your take on the law is ultimately found to be correct.

ATF raided a church to make some SWAT video for use in Congressional hearings.

If you complete a bunch of frames and start selling them, interstate or locally, you've got ATF troubles for being in the business without a license. But a single in-state private transfer is mostly a state law issue.